The Sewing Place

Pattern Drafting question

UttaRetch

Re: Pattern Drafting question
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2021, 18:45:33 PM »
@RachelB, I've been following your progress on the other place and reading the advice, some of which I feel is not good and will not get you where you need to be.  From the top:

you need a full bust adjustment and have to pick the high bust measurement as a starting point.  The difference between the high and full bust is what you will use to distribute the 'spread' across the bodice.  When you do a full bust adjustment, typically the front bodice tilts up and you need to compensate for this;

the back bodice is still too long.  Find the narrowest part of your torso, place a piece of ribbon around it and have someone measure for your back length, that is from the nape of your neck to the line around the waist;

I notice from the other place that the front hemline tilts up and that is because the bodice also slopes upwards.  I also think that the darts in the back of the skirt are too long.

I don't think you can compare your nicely rounded body to that of the very thin Duchess of Cambridge and it is possible that hers was altered to fit.

I took a look at the things you have made in the past and honestly, the fit is good.  I keep saying this, but don't be tempted to overfit.  You need to walk and sit down.
What goes around comes around.

RachelB

Re: Pattern Drafting question
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2021, 21:14:34 PM »
@UttaRetch  Thank you so much!  I tried doing the FBA and failed miserably at it. It was the first time I had ever done one, and I missed getting the apex of my bust in the right place and got the bodice too big.  Do you think the FBA will take care of the looseness between the front waist darts?   Do I need to do it after I correct the pattern for the gaping neck and armhole? Also, my full bust measurement is 36" and my high bust measurement is 34".  I thought that the 34"  bust measurement that was given on the pattern I am using (M8032) was for the high bust, so I chose a size 12.  However, it is for the full bust.  The size 14 is for a full bust of 36".  I am wondering if I need to just start over with a size 14?  Also, thank you for that link to the FBA tutorial.  That is very clear and I see now what I did wrong on my FBA.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 02:48:22 AM by RachelB »

Ohsewsimple

Re: Pattern Drafting question
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2021, 22:55:55 PM »
I agree with @UttaRetch in that you need an FBA.  Knowing that, that would be my starting point. 
The dress is also too tight.  Adding width at the side seams is not the right way to go about it.  If you let out the side seams, the sleeves won’t fit!   You need space within the bodice so that is where it should be placed.  The FBA will give you width and length.  The side seams look to be sloping forward.  The FBA will also correct that providing length and allowing the seams to swing back to where they should be.  So as has been said, start with your high bust or chest measurement for a pattern.   Then work out the difference between that and your full bust.  The difference is the amount that needs to be added.  You have to remember to halve the amount as you will be working on half the front as a pattern.

Also as said, you must check what your waist position is and the nape  to waist length. 

If you look at the picture of the dress in the link it isn’t a great fit actually! 
And as for Kate’s dress.  I doubt those are just darts.  I think that has been contoured.  Ordinary darts take out fullness and the garment skims over the bust towards the waist.  The only way you get that serious curve and fit is to use contoured darts or very fitted princess seams.  It is taking out all excess fabric and fitting the garment closely. It’s the sort of thing you see on corsets and evening gowns that are close or very close fitting.  It can’t be accomplished by simple straight darts.

If you’re only on muslin 5 that’s  not  bad!    :) I know it’s not what you want to hear. But the closer a fit, the more problems can arise and the more precise you have to be. 

Elnnina

Re: Pattern Drafting question
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2021, 23:40:36 PM »
May I throw my  suggestion into the mix.  A DVD called Full Busted by Marta Alto deals with the bust area as the title suggests.  Marta was also instrumental in the book Fit for Real People, and if you can follow Marta's way to do the FBA you cannot go wrong.  At the beginning of the DVD she takes you through the whole process very clearly, and of course you can stop and start the DVD as much as you want to, so by copying what she is doing may help you.  In addition to the DVD and the book Marta tells you exactly what equipment you are going to need to be able to do all of this, and thus it is worth taking the trouble to look at this and compare to what you already have at home.  i.e. a cardboard cutting out board that is already marked in inches, some Scotch Magic Tape but you need the 1/2" size, also you will need some Perfect Pattern Tissue by Palmer Pletsch and this is again marked up in squares, and you cut into strips different widths so that you have the correct amount to insert when doing the FBA.  The first time I tried to do this I used stuff I already had, and made an almighty mess and what a waste of a pattern.  I now have the correct items and having watched the DVD several times now I realise and understand just what is happening.  Marta makes it look so easy, and it is just like having your own personal one to one tutor in the room with you.  Marta is using real people to tissue fit and of course some of these people are lovely and slim whilst others are more generously endowed.

Once you have a garment that is fitting you correctly and is comfortable, then this is just the start for other garments, and of course you can then use designer features to make your own version just as nice as the pattern.

By the way I have mentioned the Fit for Real People by Pati Palmer and Marta Alto, this book has been around for a good few years now, and more recently they brought out an updated version and that title is  Palmer Pletsch Complete Guide to Fitting.  Both books are covering all sorts of fitting issues and again are using real people.

I personally find that the DVD Full Busted and either of these fitting books excellent and have helped me a lot in my own personal fitting issues.

RachelB

Re: Pattern Drafting question
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2021, 00:43:33 AM »
I agree with @UttaRetch in that you need an FBA.  Knowing that, that would be my starting point. 
The dress is also too tight.  Adding width at the side seams is not the right way to go about it.  If you let out the side seams, the sleeves won’t fit!   You need space within the bodice so that is where it should be placed.  The FBA will give you width and length.  The side seams look to be sloping forward.  The FBA will also correct that providing length and allowing the seams to swing back to where they should be.  So as has been said, start with your high bust or chest measurement for a pattern.   Then work out the difference between that and your full bust.  The difference is the amount that needs to be added.  You have to remember to halve the amount as you will be working on half the front as a pattern.

Also as said, you must check what your waist position is and the nape  to waist length. 

If you look at the picture of the dress in the link it isn’t a great fit actually! 
And as for Kate’s dress.  I doubt those are just darts.  I think that has been contoured.  Ordinary darts take out fullness and the garment skims over the bust towards the waist.  The only way you get that serious curve and fit is to use contoured darts or very fitted princess seams.  It is taking out all excess fabric and fitting the garment closely. It’s the sort of thing you see on corsets and evening gowns that are close or very close fitting.  It can’t be accomplished by simple straight darts.

If you’re only on muslin 5 that’s  not  bad!    :) I know it’s not what you want to hear. But the closer a fit, the more problems can arise and the more precise you have to be.

@Ohsewsimple You know I was thinking the same thing about the inspiration dress.  I zoomed in on it and there are some definite fitting issues.  On the size 12 dress pattern I am using, the high bust is 32", the full bust is 34", and the finished bust measurement is 38". My high bust is 34" and my full bust measurement is 36".  Are you saying to stick with this size 12 and do an FBA of 2" since the difference between my high and full bust is 2"? I have always sewn a size 12, because that is what my bust measurement called for before, but now that I have figured out that the bust measurement on the pattern envelope is for the full bust, the size 14 fits my bust now. I am sorry if I am being dense.  :|

« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 02:43:32 AM by RachelB »

RachelB

Re: Pattern Drafting question
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2021, 00:46:21 AM »
May I throw my  suggestion into the mix.  A DVD called Full Busted by Marta Alto deals with the bust area as the title suggests.  Marta was also instrumental in the book Fit for Real People, and if you can follow Marta's way to do the FBA you cannot go wrong.  At the beginning of the DVD she takes you through the whole process very clearly, and of course you can stop and start the DVD as much as you want to, so by copying what she is doing may help you.  In addition to the DVD and the book Marta tells you exactly what equipment you are going to need to be able to do all of this, and thus it is worth taking the trouble to look at this and compare to what you already have at home.  i.e. a cardboard cutting out board that is already marked in inches, some Scotch Magic Tape but you need the 1/2" size, also you will need some Perfect Pattern Tissue by Palmer Pletsch and this is again marked up in squares, and you cut into strips different widths so that you have the correct amount to insert when doing the FBA.  The first time I tried to do this I used stuff I already had, and made an almighty mess and what a waste of a pattern.  I now have the correct items and having watched the DVD several times now I realise and understand just what is happening.  Marta makes it look so easy, and it is just like having your own personal one to one tutor in the room with you.  Marta is using real people to tissue fit and of course some of these people are lovely and slim whilst others are more generously endowed.

Once you have a garment that is fitting you correctly and is comfortable, then this is just the start for other garments, and of course you can then use designer features to make your own version just as nice as the pattern.

By the way I have mentioned the Fit for Real People by Pati Palmer and Marta Alto, this book has been around for a good few years now, and more recently they brought out an updated version and that title is  Palmer Pletsch Complete Guide to Fitting.  Both books are covering all sorts of fitting issues and again are using real people.

I personally find that the DVD Full Busted and either of these fitting books excellent and have helped me a lot in my own personal fitting issues.

@Elnnina  Thank you so much for those suggestions.  I will definitely check out the video and the books.

Renegade Sewist

Re: Pattern Drafting question
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2021, 02:00:28 AM »
Stick with the 12. That is better for your bone structure, especially if you have gaping at the neck and arms. So many people try to base all their fitting off the bust. In doing so they aren't fitting their frame, their bone structure, and neckline and sleeve problems ensue.

RachelB

Re: Pattern Drafting question
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2021, 02:15:17 AM »
Stick with the 12. That is better for your bone structure, especially if you have gaping at the neck and arms. So many people try to base all their fitting off the bust. In doing so they aren't fitting their frame, their bone structure, and neckline and sleeve problems ensue.

@Renegade Sewist  Thank you.  I will.   

jen

Re: Pattern Drafting question
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2021, 07:46:39 AM »
There’s some top notch advice here. Many people overfit at the toile stage. If the fabric is a woven you need up to four inches of ease on the finished bust measurement. I saw your toile on the other forum and agree that fixing the back waist to match your natural waist will help.

toileandtrouble

Re: Pattern Drafting question
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2021, 08:01:03 AM »
I second the FBA video, and the book.  Both very helpful.

Elnnina

Re: Pattern Drafting question
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2021, 09:59:46 AM »
Rachel please forgive me I posted very late last night and forgot to mention something.  McCalls patterns – some of these are designed by Palmer Pletsch (yes of the fitting tissue fame) and on the pattern envelope up near the word McCalls, you will find the name of Palmer Pletsch as well.  Now some of these patterns marked this way – will actually have extra lines already printed on the pattern tissue so it is these lines that you actually follow in order to do the FBA.  Now I do not know when they started doing this, so you may find some patterns have this and some do not.  However to help me initially I went through the DVD seeking out the various patterns that Marta had used (believe me in places it is very difficult to pick up the pattern number) and then using  Google I went looking on the internet, and I was able to pick up factory folded and unused/discontinued patterns quite easily.  If you can find a pattern that has these extra lines on that will be a great help in getting you started.  Marta also shows you how to get the bust shaping in the correct place as we are all different, and that will help you a lot, by drawing a box around the bust shaping and cutting this out and then placing this in the correct position for you and filling in the gap with other tissue.  It is all these little hints and tips that make Fit for Real People and the Full Busted DVD so very useful.    At the time I purchased the Full Busted DVD I was able to buy the patterns that Marta  had used – but only those I was particularly interested in in this way and it did make quite a difference when following Marta as she steadily worked through the fitting process.  I believe over in the USA people buy up the discontinued/out of print patterns and then sell them on via Etsy and other ways – and this is how I obtained mine – perhaps being over here in the UK it was an expensive exercise but I was rather desperate to try and get my fitting issues sorted and found this was the way to go.

Once you have mastered this technique you can then apply this to other patterns – so it is something I think you will find very useful.  Yes maybe initially on starting out on this journey you may have to spend a bit of money acquiring all the  necessary bits and pieces that will help you, but I do not think you will be disappointed.

I think the Full Busted DVD is the next best thing to going to classes to be fitted, in fact having Marta residing in your workroom/sitting room has been a great help to me.

May I wish you good luck in your fitting process.

Ohsewsimple

Re: Pattern Drafting question
« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2021, 11:54:45 AM »
@RachelB the book @Elnnina recommended is excellent for a first fitting book.  I have lots but that one is easy to follow.  Haven’t seen the DVD but I would imagine it’s very good to see the techniques in action so you can follow it. 

As far as pattern sizing is concerned I know the advice from Palmer/Pletsch is to substitute your chest  or high bust measurement for the full bust.  So your 34” high bust would then mean using the size 12.  Personally I don’t work quite that way because I can’t quite see the logic.  If a pattern is designed to fit a high bust of 32” then it’s designed to fit a 32”.  And the neck, armhole, shoulders etc etc are all based around that measurement.  But it is entirely up to you.  I know lots of people work that way.  But if I was making a block for myself I would be using my chest measurement. 
Another way to choose patterns is to look at the finished width of the garment.  It is up to you how close fitting you want your garment to be.  But you do have to bear in mind the shoulder, neck, armhole widths etc.    So do I suggest you stay with the 12?   Hard to say.  But if you moved up to the neXt size you may not have to do the FBA because there is only 2” difference.  You would probably not need to mess with the armhole as that would already have more room. 

One thing I would like to mention.  When sewing a toile make sure the neckline has a seam allowance on.  Staystitch on the seamline to prevent it stretching.  Then clip into the seamline so it can be folded out of the way or at least so it doesn’t choke you! :)

toileandtrouble

Re: Pattern Drafting question
« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2021, 12:00:53 PM »
The patterns to look for are 'amazing fit'.  If you go to Jaycotts site and put that in the search box, you get a good range.  I have a different skirt pattern that is not there so probably out of print but look on ebay too.(UK only because of customs!)  You can also search for 'cup sizes'. Several companies do patterns with different cup sizes included.  Don't go by bra cup size, look at the measurement instructions for them.

RachelB

Re: Pattern Drafting question
« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2021, 16:59:12 PM »
There’s some top notch advice here. Many people overfit at the toile stage. If the fabric is a woven you need up to four inches of ease on the finished bust measurement. I saw your toile on the other forum and agree that fixing the back waist to match your natural waist will help.

@jen Thank you. 

RachelB

Re: Pattern Drafting question
« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2021, 17:01:34 PM »
Rachel please forgive me I posted very late last night and forgot to mention something.  McCalls patterns – some of these are designed by Palmer Pletsch (yes of the fitting tissue fame) and on the pattern envelope up near the word McCalls, you will find the name of Palmer Pletsch as well.  Now some of these patterns marked this way – will actually have extra lines already printed on the pattern tissue so it is these lines that you actually follow in order to do the FBA.  Now I do not know when they started doing this, so you may find some patterns have this and some do not.  However to help me initially I went through the DVD seeking out the various patterns that Marta had used (believe me in places it is very difficult to pick up the pattern number) and then using  Google I went looking on the internet, and I was able to pick up factory folded and unused/discontinued patterns quite easily.  If you can find a pattern that has these extra lines on that will be a great help in getting you started.  Marta also shows you how to get the bust shaping in the correct place as we are all different, and that will help you a lot, by drawing a box around the bust shaping and cutting this out and then placing this in the correct position for you and filling in the gap with other tissue.  It is all these little hints and tips that make Fit for Real People and the Full Busted DVD so very useful.    At the time I purchased the Full Busted DVD I was able to buy the patterns that Marta  had used – but only those I was particularly interested in in this way and it did make quite a difference when following Marta as she steadily worked through the fitting process.  I believe over in the USA people buy up the discontinued/out of print patterns and then sell them on via Etsy and other ways – and this is how I obtained mine – perhaps being over here in the UK it was an expensive exercise but I was rather desperate to try and get my fitting issues sorted and found this was the way to go.

Once you have mastered this technique you can then apply this to other patterns – so it is something I think you will find very useful.  Yes maybe initially on starting out on this journey you may have to spend a bit of money acquiring all the  necessary bits and pieces that will help you, but I do not think you will be disappointed.

I think the Full Busted DVD is the next best thing to going to classes to be fitted, in fact having Marta residing in your workroom/sitting room has been a great help to me.

May I wish you good luck in your fitting process.
@Elnnina Thank you so much for all you help and information. I will definitely get that DVD.