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Machine Talk => Sewing Machines => Topic started by: MistyRose on September 08, 2017, 22:21:43 PM

Title: Problems with Singer 513
Post by: MistyRose on September 08, 2017, 22:21:43 PM
Machine has been serviced and I've been trying to sew with it but have a problem with tension.   Tried rethreading top and bottom and changed needle.   Was wondering if old machines (late 60's early 70's) don't like Gütermann Thread.
Thanks again for your help.
Title: Re: Problems with Singer 513
Post by: arrow on September 08, 2017, 23:06:48 PM
Gütermann is about as good as it gets, but there are others just as good though. What type of thread is it? Most machines need to have bobbin tension adjusted for topstitch and extra strength thread, if you have sew-all weight it should be within what it's set up for.

Do you have looping under or on top of the fabric? Make sure you have a suitable size needle for the thread and fabric.
Title: Re: Problems with Singer 513
Post by: MistyRose on September 08, 2017, 23:22:46 PM
I did have looping underneath.   At the moment it's better but either too tight on top or below.   I've been trying to sew a thinnish polyester double thickness.
Title: Re: Problems with Singer 513
Post by: arrow on September 09, 2017, 00:51:52 AM
I was thinking mostly about the thickness of the thread, but I guess you have sew-all weight or thinner on light weight polyester. If you are using a thin, fine thread, you need to tighten upper tension.

Tension should be even and predictable, and not change unless you turn the dial. I'm not quite sure what causes erratic beavior if you haven't. Make sure the thread is in between the disks in the tensioner, some models are easier to thread when the presser foot lever is up to get the thread in place.

I'm just going though the basic really, if you have looping under neeth, you need to tighten the upper tensioner. If you are using very fine thread, you might have to tighten bobbin tension abit, but to begin with I would assume not.
Title: Re: Problems with Singer 513
Post by: BrendaP on September 09, 2017, 11:56:06 AM
Have you got the bobbin thread correctly into the spool case?   If it's not under the little tensioner spring it will likely cause looping underneath.
Title: Re: Problems with Singer 513
Post by: arrow on September 09, 2017, 16:44:52 PM
How are you doing? I see you haven't had a chance to reply yet. I'm sure it's a minor thing to sort out, and I know Gütermann thread is no problem on the older machines be it, 1920s, 1950s or 1970s. I think the standard was set way before the 1970s, more like 1950s. The problem with thread is mostly uneven spinning, bumps in the fibers, and a couple of times I've had spools of unreasonably weak thread, snapping in two for no reason. Polyester thread tends to be very smooth, and Gütermann is the one with least fuzz and lowest lint production in the feed dog - bobbin area. Lower priced thread tend to have more fuzz along the thread.  If the machine is new to you, or it's a long time since you have used it, it's probably all about finding your way about the settings.

Your avatar pick is fine, is it from your garden?
Title: Re: Problems with Singer 513
Post by: MistyRose on September 13, 2017, 21:28:40 PM
Thank you both for replying.   Sorry for delay.
Must admit I haven't used it lately.   I hadn't really noticed before there are two grooves on either side of the tension wheel.   Had I got the thread in the right one?   Manual dosen't mention this, anyway I assumed one thread go in the back on both sides and the second in the front.   Can't say I ever really noticed before.   Eventually it started stitching a lot better.
The rose is from our garden it is 'Peace', rose was a bit blurry so I enhanced it.
Thanks again.

Title: Re: Problems with Singer 513
Post by: arrow on September 13, 2017, 22:14:58 PM
I had Peace in a pot a few years a go, it didn't take off for some reason. I shall have to try it again and see what happens. Yours looks like it's doing well.

The top tensioner on these have three tension disks, and it doesn't matter which one it goes between. It's usually three shiny steel disks, the one in the middle might be flat and the outer might have a curvy edge. The 513 takes double needle or twin needles at least (depends if you have the double needle type clamp or not, I think it was among the accessories). Either way, it's to neaten up the route and tension of the two threads.
Title: Re: Problems with Singer 513
Post by: MistyRose on September 13, 2017, 23:46:48 PM
Yes it do take a double needle.   When I used it at my mothers, it was hers, I don't remember having the trouble I've had in those days, she probably dealt with that as it was hers.   I am trying to get back into using it again.
Our Peace came with our house plus a Queen Elizabeth nearly 40 years ago this has been a good year for them with long flowering season.
Title: Re: Problems with Singer 513
Post by: arrow on September 14, 2017, 00:21:52 AM
I still lean towards something very basic causing the trouble. Make sure the needle is at least size 70 or 80 (10 or 12) if you are using sew all weight thread. There are gauges for the bobbin case tension if needed, but you can manage with out.

When you need to test you should start with two layers of light cotton fabric (woven shirt - quilting type fabric). When you have the top tension on medium (usually between 4 and 5 on singers) it should give a balanced stitch.

When you have the machine fully threaded up and presser bar lever in down position you should notice gradual tension when you pull the thread. 0 should have light tension and the thread should relatively easily go through the neelde hole. On 9 it should be very tight. This cab be a bit though on a thin size 70 needle so be a bit careful when pulling.

If this turns out all right, I guess it's all about finding the righ tension for the light weight polyester. It should be fine tuning by turning the top tension knob. Sometimes a machine needs to be run in a bit if it hasn't been used much in a while. Don't hesitate to do a bit of oiling it it has been standing around for a while. I guess it's mainly about developing a feel for the machine and settings, I'm sure it will come back to you quickly.
Title: Re: Problems with Singer 513
Post by: MistyRose on September 25, 2017, 23:07:56 PM
Thanks for your help.
I've been having a go on the machine and I'm now wondering if it might be something to do with the tension discs. 
To start with the top thread was loose wherever the dial was, I decided to clean the discs with dental floss, when I threaded it again the thread went further into the disc and I got a pretty good stitch at 4 to 5 but I couldn't pull the thread through the needle by hand.   Does this give any clues as to what the problem could be.
Thanks for reminding me to oil it before it was serviced I used 3 in 1.
Title: Re: Problems with Singer 513
Post by: BrendaP on September 26, 2017, 00:43:25 AM
If the presser foot is up there should be very little resistance.  If the presser foot is down there should be resistance but not so much that you can't pull the thread through the needle.

You are taking the thread between the tension discs with the presser foot up aren't you?
Title: Re: Problems with Singer 513
Post by: Barnyard on September 26, 2017, 20:12:20 PM

Thanks for reminding me to oil it before it was serviced I used 3 in 1.

Therin lies the problem. Never ever use 3 in 1 oil on a sewing machine it simply kills them. The reason is that the oil within the 3 in 1 evaporates quickly leaving behind a horrible sticky residue that then hardens between the machine being used so the owner adds more oil and a nasty cycle of adding more and more begins until the machine becomes so gunked up it fails in one area or another. I wouls stop using it and take it for a service straight away and I will bet the 3 in 1 has either been the culprit (between the tension disks) or has at least played a major part in your troubles.
If you feel competent enough, a pack of cocktail sticks, q tips, cotton buds, meths and genuine sewing machine oil combined with copious amounts of time will get it cleaned and running. For a picure reference take a look at my post on the vintage machine page. That residue is incorrect oil being used and took the best part of 20 hours to remove. The machine now runs perfectly whereas when it came to me would barely turn.

Barny
Title: Re: Problems with Singer 513
Post by: arrow on September 26, 2017, 21:02:55 PM
I didn't mention anything, but 3-1 oil has the worst reputation that way, even from the more reliable sources it's not recommended. Sewing machine oil needs to be pure, acid free and light, it should not dry to a hard or sticky film. I'm not sure what 3in1 oil contains, but often additives or a less ideal thickness can cause trouble in as short a time as six months. It should free up with the right oil or cleaning with some kind of spray can stuff. Oiling is important but, I don't think lubrication has anything to do with the tension problems described.
Title: Re: Problems with Singer 513
Post by: Barnyard on September 27, 2017, 01:31:12 AM
I have had machines whose tension disks are totally gummed up. The oil, whatever it was they used, as it dried made any loose fibres stick to the disks compounding the problem. Tension disks should never be oiled but people do not read manuals nor take advice on servicing regimes.
I will be more thorough in my photographing from here on out as a pictorial guide of what happens when good intensions lead to major issues. Case in point No1 is the Brother I just freed. Wrong oil and lack of maintenance. Interesting that flossing between the disks improved the situation in this particular case which most likely leads to oil being dropped into the disks. I have had motors that have been destroyed through oil being used to lubricate the armature, gears that have been gummed up with machine gear grease and wiring that has been so dangerous that I did fall foul and had 240v racing through my body. If in doubt seek expert advice, my husband is a mechanic on artics and knows what to do is really not what you want to hear. I will always offer advice freely and objectively. Just ask as you could be about to make a very costly mistake.

Barny
Title: Re: Problems with Singer 513
Post by: MistyRose on September 27, 2017, 17:57:59 PM
Thank you all for your help.   It's made me think.   
The one place I didn't oil is the tension parts.   I'm thinking now that I perhaps should have put the floss through as a piece of cotton which I did not do and will try next.  Apart from the cotton problem the machine sounds good.
Title: Re: Problems with Singer 513
Post by: arrow on September 27, 2017, 19:20:54 PM
I have never oiled the tensioners, but I have been guilty of over oiling machines, especially old machines taken out of long term storage. When the  machine fold into the table or cabinet it lays stored front side down and excess oil easily dribbles into the tensioner.  I guess that's a common reason for sticky tensioners.
Title: Re: Problems with Singer 513
Post by: MistyRose on September 27, 2017, 21:01:37 PM
Yes it is stored in a cabinet.
I've never used a cloth on it but what do you suggest soft cotton?
Title: Re: Problems with Singer 513
Post by: SkoutSews on September 27, 2017, 21:23:36 PM
Tension discs are a type of brake. It's never a good idea to oil brakes  :o
Title: Re: Problems with Singer 513
Post by: MistyRose on October 07, 2017, 18:11:19 PM
I've been having a go every now and then (have been suffering from a horrble cold) and haven't really got any further.
Looking down between the discs I was wondering if, when it feels tight to pull it is touching the 'spindle' and when it's loose the discs aren't close enough causing it to be tight or loose on any number.   Whatever the cause it must be there somewhere.
Having checked and rechecked threading etc...
Title: Re: Problems with Singer 513
Post by: arrow on November 08, 2017, 22:04:35 PM
The tensioner needs to come appart. I hope there's a tutorial for yours availavle and assembly lineup for the parts. Singer tensioners are usually very similar, but they are not all exactly the same. Some have a setting screw (grub screw?) on the outer nut part, others not.

You can do a bit of investigating behind the faceplate. When you lift the presser foot lever it should push on a tiny metal pin, the pin pushes the disks appart.

When you do this remember there is tension when the presser foot lever is down, and no tension when in up position. It's very basic, and I know you know it, but so easy to forget when we are trouble shooting.
Title: Re: Problems with Singer 513
Post by: MistyRose on November 09, 2017, 22:48:50 PM
I have seen videos of the tensioner being taken apart but none with the same metal part at the front.
I went to our local shop to get the felt pieces to stand the thread on and luckily the man who service machines was there.   I asked him about it and he said it sounds like a certain plastic piece inside is damaged/broken. 
None of the videos had a tiny screw on the metal knob like the 513.   At least I now know this is the one I undo. Also on the videos there was a pin that they said had to be placed in a certain place to get the tension right. I forgot to ask about this.   Is this anything to do with the pin you mention.
Title: Re: Problems with Singer 513
Post by: arrow on November 10, 2017, 00:09:45 AM
Is this the one you have? It's probably identical to a few other models and parts are usually available.

(https://d2ydh70d4b5xgv.cloudfront.net/images/5/e/vintage-singer-tension-assembly-complete-many-models-5037dbbb2e6d2fb4b3055363610b6e61.jpg)
Title: Re: Problems with Singer 513
Post by: MistyRose on November 10, 2017, 00:18:45 AM
Yes that is the same except for the piece of metal sticking out the left side and the the silvery white piece at the back.
Title: Re: Problems with Singer 513
Post by: arrow on November 10, 2017, 00:27:30 AM
I would not hesitate to take it appart, but note down the line up of parts, sometimes I have wondered if it went on this way or that way. Photo on your phone should be good enough.
Title: Re: Problems with Singer 513
Post by: arrow on November 10, 2017, 00:34:39 AM
I found a picture of what you can expect when taking it appart on this (https://www.terapeak.com/worth/singer-sewing-machine-stylist-513-zig-zag-thread-tension-assembly/262876846600/) page. I noticed a full assembly available on ebay, but since you are in the uk I would contact Helen Howes if anything turns out to be broken. The spring is the most likely part to need replacement.

(https://d2ydh70d4b5xgv.cloudfront.net/images/0/c/singer-sewing-machine-stylist-513-zig-zag-thread-tension-assembly-92ec98691229e3079b38a25ba4c18704.jpg)
Title: Re: Problems with Singer 513
Post by: MistyRose on November 10, 2017, 00:58:14 AM
Thanks for the picture, i was going to line the pieces up as I dismantle it and take picutures.   I shouldn't need to take off the last piece that is attached to the main body should I.   The man at the shop said he would try to get the piece for me.
Thanks for your help, I hope to have a go this weekend.
Title: Re: Problems with Singer 513
Post by: arrow on November 10, 2017, 01:43:38 AM
Having a local repair guy is the best of all. I have a couple, but I likely have to provide replacement parts myself, at least in some cases. If you are lucky it might only need cleaning and correct assembly. I had the whole thing off on my 201, the inner piece towards the body too. You don't really need to, but my beige 201 was very stained and grimy. It shined up almost like new.
Title: Re: Problems with Singer 513
Post by: MistyRose on November 14, 2017, 00:46:13 AM
Well, I've taken the tensioner apart.   Fortunately nothing appears to be broken but it is grimy.
There is a bit of oil on one bit but of course it has been laying down in cabinet, so now it's cleaning time.

Title: Re: Problems with Singer 513
Post by: arrow on November 14, 2017, 09:47:28 AM
Check the tiny metal bit inside the split screw. Sometimes it can be stuck by old grime and oil, and in more than one case I have heard it's too large or too small; in your case it's possibly replaced with one too long at some point? When you lift up the presser foot lever, it should visibly be pushed in and be relased when down. It could of course haver been reassembled wrong at some point too, which is not uncommon.
Title: Re: Problems with Singer 513
Post by: MistyRose on November 15, 2017, 22:13:12 PM
By the split screw you mean the part the other pieces are threaded onto?   Does this piece inside it work with the machine off?
I've got rid of the fluff and dirt but the three discs seem to be suffering from some corrosion is there any hope for them! 
Title: Re: Problems with Singer 513
Post by: arrow on November 16, 2017, 07:47:01 AM
Yes, the part the other pieces are thraeded on to; a screw-, stud-, boltlike thing (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-nd5nK1Hd-sQ/UXs8_aaPlKI/AAAAAAAAILs/xM9UXVLmH_4/s1600/_201tension_3.gif), the outer part is threaded. It works independantly of the electricity. It's a relatively simple mechanism and the only action it has is a couple of metal parts connecting  the presser bar lever to the mentioned split screw behind the faceplate. It pushes in a small metal bit (https://oldsingersewingmachineblog.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/002.jpg), moving inside the split screw; it again pushes the tension disks appart. It should be visible from behind the face plate.

Polish up the disks with metal polish or use fine steel wool on them. If it's literally rust they are steel and should stand up to it. They usually clean up fine. If they are aluminium be more careful, but aluminium doesn't rust so I guess they are not. I have used waxy polish and ended up washing them in hot soapy water after; I suddenly worried they might be too shiny and slippery for the thread. I remember I had all the shiny metal parts in hot water with machine dishwashing powder (a 201 I had was a bit grimy). I was more careful with the painted parts, dial with numbers.

 
Title: Re: Problems with Singer 513
Post by: MistyRose on November 19, 2017, 01:33:51 AM
I have cleaned the discs with Brasso wadding as best I could and the shiny part is now smoother.
They are actually steel.   
With the help of a cocktail stick I managed to ease out the pin but will the pin normally move without the whole assembly being attached.
Title: Re: Problems with Singer 513
Post by: arrow on November 19, 2017, 12:48:56 PM
The pin should move freely back and forth. The trouble is usually it falls out when someone has taken off the whole assembly and it's small enough to fall inbetween floorboards and similar. Some times it can be stuck. All parts should be clean and no oil. In your case it's likely some parts not correctly in place, the tiny pin doesn't move all the way back as it should. As mentioned, in odd cases it has turned out to be too short or to long, and it has been replaced by a wrong type at some point. Trouble shooting can be a bit cumbersome at times but if anything is wrong it should be detectable.
Title: Re: Problems with Singer 513
Post by: MistyRose on November 20, 2017, 00:36:36 AM
I have wiped the pin, there was oil on one end.   It is 32mm long and the flat end was at the machine end I guess this is right.
Title: Re: Problems with Singer 513
Post by: arrow on November 20, 2017, 07:34:54 AM
..hmmm...

I think the flat end goes the other way, and might be why the pin doesn't push out the tension disks. The parts in the picture is aligned correctly.

(http://sewingmachine221sale.bizland.com/store/media/TensionMostCommon28Bin220.jpg)
Title: Re: Problems with Singer 513
Post by: MistyRose on November 21, 2017, 01:04:44 AM
Had a brainwave this afternoon!!!   Tried the pin both ways, the wedge shaped end wouldn't go in, too wide.   Will give the parts another wipe over then put them together and give them a try.

Saw a video today by Andy Tube on the 513 stylist, a newer version than mine I think.   He demonstrated the lever up and down on tension.
Title: Re: Problems with Singer 513
Post by: arrow on November 21, 2017, 08:01:58 AM
I suggest trusting your own observations on this. The first times I did this I kept looking for some kind of action that wasn't there. The release of the tension disks is only in connectin with the pin and the lift of the presser foot lever. The tension on the disks is set by the springs and other parts of the assembly.

The pressed end of the pin should slide in between the split in the screw; and stop at some point. It should be just long enough to reach the push in part behind the face plate. I guess this is the critical point of error that needs to be sorted out. If you are lucky, it was just inserted the wrong way around at some point (I'm just guessing from your description).