The Sewing Place
Machine Talk => Vintage Machines => Topic started by: Sewot on July 15, 2020, 14:04:48 PM
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I have opened this thread under Vintage machines as the Singer 201 is known to be the perfect stitcher. Crickey I have started something now......TAKE COVER!!!
I am of course aware that other older, newer and different brands can as well.
But can some one please define what exactly is a perfect stitch?
I have googled it and dozens of replies say when the tension is even on both sides thats perfect.
Lets go deeper.
I have noticed with some machines that each stitch although in a straight line is slightly angled.
Other machines can sew the stitch dead straight.
My 201 sews in a straight line ( with some of my help) but the stitches are at a very slight angle to each other.
I think this is common with a lot of machines.
Is this stitch still referrred to as perfect or to be perfect must the stitch be dead straight as well?
Sorry to be OCD about this but I would like to know what is meant by the perfect stitch.
Its only because I am striving to set my tensions on my 201 to optimal and I am a bit of a machine loving geek who loves to tweek.
Also, I have been asked to post some pics of what I have made so under which heading should I do that please?
Peter
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I just read about this yesterday... modern machines do a slightly angled straight stitch whereas the old mechanical ones do a dead straight line... I prefer the straight line.
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If your made items are clothing, you could start a diary in the 'Members' Diaries' section in 'In the Wardrobe'. If they are patchwork or quilting (I suspect not, but I'm being thorough!) there is a Darkside Diaries section in 'Patchwork & Quilting ... Welcome to the Darkside'.
If they don't fit into either, there is an 'Accessories' section for hats, gloves, bags etc, a 'House Beautiful' section for upholstery and furnishings, a machine embroidery section, and a knitting and crochet section. There are even sections for underwear, dancewear and bridal!!
If you do post in the wrong place one of our admins or moderators will happily move the post for you. :)
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To me a 'perfect stitch' is a very straight line but also a balanced tension. My 99k handcrank does exactly that. My 201k/2 is very near to that. One thing I think affects the straight stitch is the pressure of the foot and being able to hold the fabric perfectly straight as you sew. :) :vintage:
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A perfect stitch is a tension balanced stitch that sews in a straight line.
Once home machines were able to zig zag, they began making a "straight" seam that actually produced stitches at an almost imperceptible angle. I have only ever found this to be a problem when I attempted to make Jean's. A double stitched flat fell seam, on denim with contrasting thread was not achievable on either of the mechanical zig zag's I've owned. I always thought it was me and not the machines, until I began studying vintage machines and tailoring.
It was disappointing to hear that a 201 wasn't stitching perfect. It would be my guess that over its 60 to 80 year life span it received enough usage to cause some wear. Makes me wonder if I'll have the same problem with the 15 I've just acquired.
At least now, with the internet, there should be some help available on one of the vintage sites to help determine if a worn part may need replacing, or maybe a slight adjustment needs to occur. Either is a definite possibility.
I have topstitched numerous shirts and dresses with my zig zag mechanicals and produced items that looked superb.
Bulky items made with heavy fabrics using large stitches with contrasting thread are truly the only time that "perfect stitch" becomes elusive. I have top stitched numerous home deck projects with upholstery fabric and coordinating thread and never had an issue. I've even used contrasting thread at times and been very pleased with the results.
I think denim and leather are most likely to bring up this potential problem.
Hope this helps a bit.
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The way a lockstitch is formed the needle thread and bobbin thread twist around each other between each stitch. If teh tension is correct the twist will be between the two layers of fabric.
Because that twist is always in the same direction the stitches will always be very slightly at an angle. All lock stitch machines form the stitch in the same way. The old vintage machines didn't do anything different.
It may well be more noticeable on a zig-zag machine than on a straight stitch only machine; possibly because the wide needle hole allows more play than the small needle hole of a straight stitcher?
@Esme866 Possibly using a single needle in a coverstitch machine to make a chainstitch would give a straighter stitch. A lot of RTW jeans have two parallel lines of chainstitch on the felled seams, presumably an industrial machine with 2 needles and 2 loopers.
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@BrendaP - hmmmm... site is screwy today. Not sure this will "mention" properly.
While both vintage straight stitch and mech zz machines do use the lock stitch, it's my understanding the engineering design utilized to mechanically move the needle from side to side for zz increased the "angularity factor" of the straight seam -this making it less straight. Early attempts at creating a zz actually moved the fabric from side to side.
Many high end bespoke tailors still use vintage machines due to their straight stitch quality. An interesting video to watch on Youtube is in a series Anthony Bourdain did that was sponsored by Balvenie Scotch regarding truly gifted Craftsmen. I can't remember names at the moment ( a life-long problem) One episode featured a tailor in upstate NewYork, who happens to also be an actor and a boxer. His work is superb. His machine is in the era of the 15's. Could be anything old, black, and singer straight stitch. I'm not good at spotting which is which.
As for "needle hole" - I'm not sure what you mean here. Needle hole to me is the puncture made in the fabric by the needle. As I would usually be using larger needles on a 15 or 201 than on my zz, the vintage machine would produce the larger hole.
I definitely believe I would find a cover stitch more useful than a serger for my needs, but definitely not an option for the foreseeable future. A free #15 is it. Can't even afford the paint job it desperately needs - though of course I have the time - story of my life.
Covid sux. :headbang:
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I think the needle hole @BrendaP mentioned might be the hole in the needle plate. A single hole as opposed to the wide hole needed for zigzag.
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@Lilian and @Esme866 Yes, by needle hole I did mean the hole in the needle plate.
I think that the narrow presser foot and close together feed dogs on a vintage straight stitcher might help in keeping the stitch formation straight. Whilst I totally agree that my Singer 201 makes a much better straight stitch that my zig-zag Husqvarna, it can only be down to the minutiae of differing tensions and stresses on the threads, the actual stitch formation is the same.
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Seeing that @BrendaP tells me that if the tension is too tight even if it is balanced, that would cause the stitches to be slanted. Hmm never thought about it that way before 8)
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Thank you for your replies so far.
In order to be clear my 201 does sew in a dead straight line.
I have tested it with a piece of lined paper which needed little guidance.
I then put a ruler over the line of stitch holes.
Dead straight.
Wear with this particular machine is not an option as I know its entire history and it has hardly been used.
The angles I speak of are only just perceptable.
I have pondered for many hours wondering why and I think Brenda has nailed it.
Of course, as the bottom thread gets taken around the bobbin, a twist is induced which would explain the ever so slight angles in the finished stitch.
Phew....thats that one explained.
So now the question is....
Does your Singer 201 sew slightly angled stitches or are they dead straight.
You can see in the pic attached that my stitches are pretty much straight ( on this material ).
When I did a line of stiching on two layers of thick linen, then a slight angle is perceptable.
I am still delighted with the stitch but just need to know if this is normal.
In the image I have three lines of stitching.
8, 12 and 30 stitches to the inch.
The 30 stitches line is dead straight.
I will post an image of the angled stitch on linen later.
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The red is stitched with a 1953 Singer 201K, the grey with a Husqvarna about half it's age.
In both I can see a couple of instances where the thread comes out of the perforation slightly to the left and enters the next perforation slightly to the right.
The tension balance isn't 100% with the grey, the twist between the two threads is very slightly nearer to the underside, I got it spot on with the red.
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@Sewot
Found it! I knew I'd seen it in print somewhere.
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This comes from a Threads publication 'Beyond the Pattern'
ETA:
Reading the article with that diagram it says:
"The natural curve in a straight stitch caused by the upper thread emerging from one side of a knot and entering the next knot on the other side, always slants in the same direction, as shown in the photo.. This curve will be less noticeable when you sew with a straight-stitch foot and throat plate, because the narrow holes in the foot and plate support the fabric all round the area where the needle enters the fabric, reducing any unwanted fabric movement."
So I didn't dream that up, I had actually learned about it ages ago!
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Brenda.
You are a wizard.
This explains the slight twist in the stitch and also the twist induced as it goes around the bobbin.
Thanks for your images and time taken.
Heres a pic of the same stitch, same length and same thread sewn on my wonderful newly acquired 201P!!!
I will post a pic of my machine later on.
I am more than happy with this stitch.
I don't think I can get it more perfect.
The tensions seem right both sides.
On the folded linen hem with some mass for the needle to work efficiently, the stitch really comes out.
If the cotton was the same colour it would be hard to criticise it.
So my machine is set 100%?
I think, where you write that certain stitches were not quite there is due to the fabric structure?
Ie...I have found that when I sew Calico, the needle will hop into the easiest part of the fabric thereby giving a wonkey line.
Someone said that when sewing Denim they experienced this.
Denim of course has definate lines of warp and weft and the needle will go to the easiest spot.
At least thats my theory.
Please correct me if wrong.
Thanks for your valueable input.
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This is also one of the reasons they claim you can tell stitch quality differences between an industrial and a domestic.
My personal opinion also is that plastic parts vs. metal makes a slight difference in tolerance in the machine and it comes out on the stitches, assuming all is working and adjusted in the machine. Also thread makes a difference in the slant: modern spools have the thread wound different and comes off the spool different then vintage spools. Modernly, industrial spools work the same as the vintage ones do.
Saying that, I use domestics. Generally I use an industrial thread holder attached to my table where the spool is not on the machine at all, or I use a mug and wire behind the machine, spool on the machine when I wind it myself (usually wooden spools).
My 66 treadle (1928) is perfectly straight stitches if I use thread I have wound myself or industrial cones. If I use a tool to make modern spools work, it's 1/32 slant.
My Davis evenfeed slants 1/64 regardless of thread.
My 99 (1940) slants 1/16 with modern spools, 1/32 industrial.
My 201 slants 1/32 with modern spools, 1/64 with those I wind myself and none with industrial spools.
My featherweight (1938) slants 1/64 with self wound and industrial, 1/16 with modern.
My Pfaff I have for zig zag is a huge whatever. It slants 1/16-1/64 depending on BRAND of thread. Worse with Gutermann.
All of these are metal mechanical machines.
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Thank you Kwaaked for this.
At last I am reading answers from you and Brenda that I wanted to know.
When I google straight stitch, nobody covers the " slant " on the stitches or why they are there but just tension.
I cannot go industrial for three reasons.
Too expensive.
No room for one.
I only want to make my own clothes.
Yes there is a fourth.
If the seamstresses of the fifties produced beautiful clothes on a 201 or lesser machine ( don't take offence)..I am referring to a beaten up old relic that just about sews and all they could afford!!!!)then I imagine myself that far back wanting to achieve that goal but today.
I think that is one of the reasons a lot of us " go vintage".
You have clearly, like me, taken your stitching seriously to wind your own wooden bobbins.
I love it.
Any pics of the bobbins and the mug with wire?
I can see myself starting to do the same.
Yes...I agree with Gütterman threads not producing thick enough thread.
On the latest of my images I sewed the hem with coates thread for a reason.
It is slightly thicker and more in keeping with the thicker threads sold and designed for these old machines in the fifties or earlier?
Someone advised me " don't use Coates".
I found Coates thread performed better than Gütterman but that is only my take on it.
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I have an industrial (3 of them) but I own a commercial property with 2500 square feet of space and most of the alterations I do is on one of them. I also have many other machines to do what I want them to do.
As far as it goes, no I don't have a pic of my set up but here https://archaicarcane.com/standing-at-a-crossroads-thread-cross-wound-vs-stack-wound/ shows what I mean. I use mugs I get for free from vendors (the 24-32 out plastic ones with handles) because I have them on hand and don't use them, but I can't take credit for the idea...I got it from Treadleon over a decade ago. As to winding, I use one of the big Simplicity winders and the EZ wind spool holder with wooden spools I pick up all over the place, I just put a mug on the floor and wind it through the thread loop.
Now the slant in and of itself isn't going to alter how the clothes are made of hang, by the way. All it is going to do is tell someone in the industry if you made it on a domestic or industrial. It's not off enough to change the seam at all. To the eye, it still looks and hangs straight. And really? This is only something you run into in college with certain professors who think home sewing is silly and there is no way the untrained plebs can do any great work....and these professors often don't sew themselves.
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Something else that I didn't see here in regards to "perfect" stitches is consistent stitch length and skipped stitches. Some cheaper machines or heavily used machines, as in somewhat worn out, don't feed well or consistently or skip stitches with regularity. For general sewing it's not a problem unless you're doing machine sewn hems or topstitching.
As for it bouncing around on your calico I would attribute that to the wrong size or type of needle or the needle being dull. A lot of sewing problems are due to wrong or dull needles.
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You guys have me dying to do a comparison. Unfortunately only the #15 is here (I'm at Mom and Dad's). All fabrics, supplies and other machine is at home 25 miles away.
As for "perfect". My Mother was a perfectionist in her youth as was her father before her. I learned at an early age
the expectation of perfection makes for a rather miserable existence and often leads to projects dropped by the wayside.
I choose to strive for the best possible quality. Much more realistic to achieve.
As for threads - wow - is that an issue these days!
@Sewot - I noticed you're in OZ, Kwaaked and I are both in the same US state - Tennessee. Everyone satisfied with Gütermann seems to be in the UK. I strongly suspect what is being offered in the UK may be what is called Mara 100 here, and we have to order that from supply houses. The Gütermann that's readily available in B&M stores for home use is horrible. Shreds like crazy! I can't even stand to use it for a sample garment. The Coates that is readily available gives me no trouble- but the color offerings are limited. I wonder if the same is true on your side of the "other" pond. :thinking:
I find that all of the newer threads I've purchased (even Mettler and ???- both $$$) have such a high twist they must all be waxed for hand stitching, otherwise they knot like crazy. I use a spool of 50 year old industrial thread for hand basting - no twisting and knotting - and no waxing required. I've several spools from my Grandmother. The colors are such that I'm certain my niece and nephew will have to deal with it when I'm gone.
Sewing was so much simpler/easier 30 years ago.
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Esme, I use Mara and call it Gutermann and I order from them proper or Wawak, and only if I can't wait for it from CTSUsa. I rarely walk into a B&M store for much, all of my actual sewing supplies except for patterns and very occasionally fabric comes from online stores. Being in Tennessee, you are also aware how much isn't here...I live at the Al/Tn border, and I can drive 45 min to Florence or 2 hours to Murfreesboro (or 3 to Nashville) for supplies and in the end, they have a 10th of what I want, so I stick to online.
Most of my thread comes from CTSUsa on that end, if Coates would have approved my wholesale application, I'd probably use them but their retail plastic spool sucks on all my machines even with the setup so I don't use it. But most of my thread is industrial spools and most people have no need for it, so I never recommend it to anyone. Basting thread I use Torre from Bias Bespoke.
On the perfectionist end, I am one. My clothes may be ugly (see weird zebra pants from hell with ribbon fringe on here) but they were certainly sewn well. Perfectionism is a weird quality...you may find being one miserable, but I find leaving errors to be a nightmare. No, I don't always achieve perfect, but I come as close as I am able.
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@Kwaaked I'm only sewing for myself so much of my sewing thread stash matches my fabric stash, so I have yet to order any Mara (which in case has anyone confused is made by Gütermann.) And if I want to match a color (I'm picky with this) I have a quilt shop that carries Mettler and Sulky which takes the hugest part of $7, but at least I can color match.
Nashville and Atlanta are almost equal distance for me. Fortunately I have 2 upholstery jobbers close by.
As far as perfection, I'm not a "good enough" person at all. I simply find quality a reasonable goal.
Now if my tailoring and fitting skills would follow suit.....
Having access to so much information these days is wonderful, but I'm glad I'm not having to learn from scratch. There's just so much that "isn't good" mixed in with the "satisfactory" and "wonderful" that trying to learn must be daunting.
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Well I have been guilty of perfectionism.
Lets be clear about this.
I would rather be just normal!!!! as trying too hard sometimes can absorb me completely and I turn into a geek.
No....
Okay...I am a geek!!
But I enjoy being geeky because I l earn things.
I looked up on your site about threads and watched Dr Bobs thread delivery video.
Okay so we get cross wound thread here in Oz ( for the home sewer) So that means on my 201K I will have to alter its delivery from that of the supplied vertical spool pin.
I will make a sturdy vertical spool pin that is lower than the machine and deliver the thread like yours without twisting it.
Yes I agree to not liking noisy spools and prefer a quiter machine.
I thought it quite off putting for the professors to say that home sewing is silly.
I strongly disagree with them for that.
Oh crickey I am being assertive again.
But heck!.....we home sewers get a kick out of doing what we do and it keeps us active.
They need to listen to the words of Albert Einstein....
Without imagination you have nothing!
Mind you he also said
" all a man needs for total happiness is a table with a bowl of fruit and a violin to play"
So on that front I will give up sewing , eat fruit and play my violin!
Pete
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I strongly suspect what is being offered in the UK may be what is called Mara 100 here, and we have to order that from supply houses. The Gütermann that's readily available in B&M stores for home use is horrible.
Yes definitely - Gütermann Sew All is Gütermann Mara 100 - just a different put-up for the domestic market.
Sew All (https://consumer.guetermann.com/en/product-finder/sew-all-thread)
Mara 100 (https://industry.guetermann.com/en/products/product-finder/mara-100)