The Sewing Place

The Emporia => The Show Must Go On => Topic started by: datcat23 on March 12, 2019, 11:15:41 AM

Title: Medieval Dress and mens outfit
Post by: datcat23 on March 12, 2019, 11:15:41 AM
Hey guys, I need some help. 

Hubby and I have been invited to a themed wedding.  quote from the bride:  We r basing our dress on 12th century Saxon. My son is coming 12th century viking. We r having a handfast ceremony. Reception is a mead hall 12th century feast

So I am looking for patterns for a medieval dress (plus sized) for myself, and medieval mens outfit (regular) for hubby).

Any suggestions would be great.
Title: Re: Medieval Dress and mens outfit
Post by: annieeg on March 12, 2019, 11:28:46 AM
there's this:  https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/254155363756?chn=ps
I made this pattern several years ago (for a fancy dress party) and still have the red brocade "pinafore" dress somewhere.
I made a gold panelled underskirt and white blouse.  It came out really well and was easy to wear.
Annie :)

Title: Re: Medieval Dress and mens outfit
Post by: Efemera on March 12, 2019, 12:53:20 PM
A few pictures
Title: Re: Medieval Dress and mens outfit
Post by: toileandtrouble on March 12, 2019, 14:10:40 PM
For men:
https://jaycotts.co.uk/products/s1552
Title: Re: Medieval Dress and mens outfit
Post by: Missie on March 12, 2019, 15:01:53 PM
Have a look at this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Un5ipTjDms).  You can see what women wore in 12th century and you also get a peek of a man's costume.

If you google bliaut pattern, you will get quite a few come up and is probably something you can do yourself as it was very simple tailoring in those days, no complicated shapes!

Looking forward to seeing the end result!
Title: Re: Medieval Dress and mens outfit
Post by: Roger on March 12, 2019, 20:23:58 PM
Many years ago I found a book for medieval patterns, couldnt buy it at the time and it wasnt relevant to me but i memorised chunks of the patterns :) not massively helpful to you but more to say their are books out there too

the internet is also good for this sort of thing, groups like the society for creative anachronisms (SCA)and other enactment and historical groups have patterns around:)

Have a good wedding :)
Title: Re: Medieval Dress and mens outfit
Post by: BrendaP on March 12, 2019, 22:45:42 PM

  quote from the bride:  We r basing our dress on 12th century Saxon. My son is coming 12th century viking. We r having a handfast ceremony. Reception is a mead hall 12th century feast


Assuming that she is referring to the Saxon era in England (they didn't get to Australia!) the bride needs to brush up on her history!

The Saxon period in England started after the Roman withdrawl in the early 5th century and ended in 1066, which was mid eleventh century.  Also Vikings and Saxons didn't really mix.  The Saxons came to what is now southern England whilst the Vikings from northern Scandinavia came to the north east (and parts of Scotland and Ireland).  Between them were the Angles in eastern England, and the Jutes settled in East Kent and along the south coast.  1066 onwards was Norman, then Plantagenate middle ages.

Of course if she is referring to Saxon as being from the Medieval Duchy of Saxony then 14th century is OK, but they wouldn't have welcomed any Vikings there!

Anglo-Saxon women's fashions 5th-11th centuries (http://www.tha-engliscan-gesithas.org.uk/education/anglo-saxon-clothes-women)
Anglos Saxon mens's fashions (http://www.tha-engliscan-gesithas.org.uk/education/anglo-saxon-clothes-men)
European 12th century fashions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1100%E2%80%931200_in_European_fashion)
Mediaeval peasant dress (https://www.thoughtco.com/european-peasant-dress-1788614)
English mediaeval clothes (https://www.historic-uk.com/CultureUK/Medieval-Fashion/)





Title: Re: Medieval Dress and mens outfit
Post by: PollyWally on March 13, 2019, 05:27:07 AM
I can't quite picture a mead hall in Canberra, sounds like a bit of a challenge to come up with two suitable outfits !
Title: Re: Medieval Dress and mens outfit
Post by: Missie on March 13, 2019, 10:16:07 AM
whilst the Vikings from northern Scandinavia came to the north east (and parts of Scotland and Ireland). 

The Viking reach was far more extensive that that and covered pretty much half of England, including East Anglia, right down to The Thames, I believe, and was part of the Treaty signed by Guthrum and King Alfred, giving Guthrum control of these areas (later known as Danelaw).  The last Viking invasion was 1066 so definitely before the 12th Century.  Maybe her son is just determined to be a Viking!
Title: Re: Medieval Dress and mens outfit
Post by: BrendaP on March 13, 2019, 10:52:51 AM
If you include the Danes as viking then yes they did, but modern Denmark/Jutland peninsula isn't Northern Scandinavia.
 
Title: Re: Medieval Dress and mens outfit
Post by: Missie on March 13, 2019, 14:59:54 PM
If you include the Danes as viking then yes they did, but modern Denmark/Jutland peninsula isn't Northern Scandinavia.

Interesting, I thought they were all lumped in as one! I watch and loved the Last Kingdom and did loads of reading up on Vikings (and because I keep trying to persuade the kids we need to go to The Jorvik Centre) and everthing seemed to put all the scandinavian invaders under the same umbrella as Vikings!  My new thing learned for the day!
Title: Re: Medieval Dress and mens outfit
Post by: datcat23 on March 18, 2019, 20:45:28 PM
Well it just keeps getting better and better. 

Hubby has hinted (inferred, alluded to, and just generally said) that its possible we may need to help his parents sort out a costume as well.

So, I will be making TWO mens outfits (hubby's dad is probably one or two sizes smaller than him) and TWO womens outfits (the MIL is a size or two smaller than me).  This could possibly be an expensive exercise. 
Title: Re: Medieval Dress and mens outfit
Post by: PollyWally on March 19, 2019, 02:50:51 AM
Have you thought about hiring costumes ?  I guess it would be more expensive but it would save you a lot of work.
Title: Re: Medieval Dress and mens outfit
Post by: datcat23 on March 19, 2019, 06:12:51 AM
Have you thought about hiring costumes ?  I guess it would be more expensive but it would save you a lot of work.

There is no doubt that hiring would save me time, and who knows, the in-laws may decide to do that.  However I have gone down the hiring route once before, and it can be a depressing exercise.  I am short, and wide, and big busted.  Very few costumes cater to my size or body shape, and I would prefer to not go to something dressed as a monk again.  I was heartbroken when that happened.  So regardless of how much I grumble, I would much prefer to make my own. 
Title: Re: Medieval Dress and mens outfit
Post by: Yellowfeather on March 19, 2019, 12:57:45 PM
Datcat, what a wonderful idea for a wedding!!  I love it, and who cares if it is or is not historically accurate!  I would imagine that the style of dress didn't change that much anyway.  I hope you find what you are looking for, some of the re-inactment sites have basic patterns and ideas for styles of dress.  I hope you enjoy making the costumes and have a really great time at the wedding.
Title: Re: Medieval Dress and mens outfit
Post by: Missie on March 19, 2019, 13:42:50 PM
@datcat23   I'd forgotten about Reconstructing History; they have a men's pattern (https://reconstructinghistory.com/product/rh004-12th-through-16th-c-peasant-man/) which might be good as a starting point and are downloadable.  Haven't made anything of theirs so can't vouch for them, but I have them marked as a source of interest!
Title: Re: Medieval Dress and mens outfit
Post by: datcat23 on March 19, 2019, 20:52:45 PM
So I have made a start.  Here is my inspiration shot,  (I actually find this guy quite attractive so bodes well for hubby)

(https://i.pinimg.com/564x/21/11/89/211189f41d0e83532d9783e49b09f1f7.jpg)

And I have purchased a base pattern to use.  I will be using the long, split tunic part from this pattern.

(https://images.patternreview.com/sewing/patterns/burda/7976/7976vr.jpg)

Obviously I need to make a few alterations.  The pattern has a (hold your breath) ZIP!!!   :|  That will go.  I will put in a neck keyhole, and a laced opening at the back.  I will decide closer to the date, if I will be applying a decorative trim, or embroidering the hemline.  We shall see. 
Title: Re: Medieval Dress and mens outfit
Post by: wrenkins on March 20, 2019, 07:31:27 AM
I searched 'gilly shirt' and all sorts of self drafted patterns came up for gillies and for olde worlde tunics. I would tend to lace the front rather than the back for a man.
I know nothing about the history but I'm a wow at fancy dress!  0_0 I suspect the desired effect is less historically based and more 'Robin Hood Prince of Thieves'.  0_0
Title: Re: Medieval Dress and mens outfit
Post by: datcat23 on April 23, 2019, 05:37:47 AM
I have taken the first step, and produced a muslin for hubby's tunic.  Muslin fabric was a white sheet, purchased at the local charity shop.  Edits resulting .... I will need to add a bit more width to the waist/hips area, and extend the facings a bit.

Hubby doesn't want the big applique panel across the shoulders, so that has eased some of the pressure.   I still think it needs some sort of embroidery at the neckline.  Whether I purchase some celtic knot files to embroidery directly onto the tunic, or embroider onto a contrast fabric, and then do an external facing .... not exactly sure.  I plan to embellish the hemline/split, but I plan to use a purchased trim for that.  I have to remind myself, that I don't need to rush ahead with this.  I have 4 months until the wedding. 

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/46724706285_c6e6ac826e.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ebUkje)tunic muslin (https://flic.kr/p/2ebUkje) by Dani (https://www.flickr.com/photos/datcat/), on Flickr
Title: Re: Medieval Dress and mens outfit
Post by: DementedFairy on April 23, 2019, 08:15:15 AM
@datcat23   I'd forgotten about Reconstructing History; they have a men's pattern (https://reconstructinghistory.com/product/rh004-12th-through-16th-c-peasant-man/) which might be good as a starting point and are downloadable.  Haven't made anything of theirs so can't vouch for them, but I have them marked as a source of interest!
NO NO NO NO NO don't go near RH they are CRAP patterns.  Honestly, there's lots of info out there about the disastrous state of their patterns.  The 'designer' is a costume historian, but doesn't sew herself, and it appears she doesn't get anything pattern tested either.  Drafting up of sizes is atrocious, instructions and pattern markings blatantly incorrect or full of glaring omissions.  She is notorious for slagging off anyone who criticises her publicly, so I make it my mission to do so loud and clear!
DO NOT BUY
Title: Re: Medieval Dress and mens outfit
Post by: Morgan on April 23, 2019, 10:30:12 AM
Fun project Datty, will enjoy seeing your progress.

Title: Re: Medieval Dress and mens outfit
Post by: datcat23 on April 30, 2019, 08:59:24 AM
WDYT? 

I have picked up a big piece of cotton muslin, and after washing its the texture of a really soft cheesecloth.  I am considering that my chemise, to go under my dress, will work well in this fabric, but I am not sure. 

What do you think?  Will it stand up to being an undergarment?
Title: Re: Medieval Dress and mens outfit
Post by: Greybird on April 30, 2019, 09:17:41 AM
Don't see why not? If it's stood up to washing it should stand up to wearing.
Title: Re: Medieval Dress and mens outfit
Post by: datcat23 on April 30, 2019, 09:44:05 AM
It has stood up to both washing and tumble drying, so while its semi-see through, it seems like its ok. 
Title: Re: Medieval Dress and mens outfit
Post by: HenriettaMaria on April 30, 2019, 15:39:33 PM
Look up the re-enactment fraternities on Google, most specifically Regia Anglorum.  There are loads of images you can get inspiration from for decoration.  Fabrics really should be wool or linen, of course, although if you want to go up-market, silk and fur are also period-correct.

If you're within travelling distance of Coventry and the wedding is next year, you can try The Original Re-enactors' Market for accessories, fabric, shoes, etc:

https://www.reenactorsmarket.co.uk/index.html

Unfortunately, you've missed March's event and the next one isn't until November, but you could contact Anne and she could put you on to some appropriate vendors.


Title: Re: Medieval Dress and mens outfit
Post by: datcat23 on May 01, 2019, 08:13:24 AM
[quote author=HenriettaMaria link=topic=6755.msg115779#msg115779 date=1556635173

If you're within travelling distance of Coventry and the wedding is next year, you can try The Original Re-enactors' Market for accessories, fabric, shoes, etc:

https://www.reenactorsmarket.co.uk/index.html
[/quote]

You are sweet @HenriettaMaria , but its unlikely I access this resource.  Australia is a fair distance away from Coventry.  I have to add the consideration, that while it will still be winter, it will actually be quite warm.  So regardless of tradition, I need to consider the heat when choosing fabrics.  So I might pass on the fur.  LOL ;)
Title: Re: Medieval Dress and mens outfit
Post by: datcat23 on May 05, 2019, 04:53:29 AM
So today I decided to make a start on my under-dress muslin, and also trial the embroideries, that will be going on the dresses.

My first hurdle?  Dealing with instructions that are obviously written by a non-sewer.  Sewing terminology and processes are so ingrained into my brain, that the sight of "the side panels are two trapezoids with a gore in the middle", is enough to make me twitch.  Some measurements are missing, and others you are told to guess.  As you can imagine, it is stressing out my tiny little obsessive brain.

I have made my first seamstress change to the process.  I have drafted to pattern paper, rather than straight onto the fabric.  While I appreciate the "no waste" method for cutting, I just need pattern pieces. 

I think I need another coffee, before I tackle anything else. 
Title: Re: Medieval Dress and mens outfit
Post by: wrenkins on May 05, 2019, 06:56:20 AM
I can't believe the number of posts, similar to this, that I read on here about patterns.  :[
When I have to do an SOP (standard operating procedure) for a new piece of kit, the first thing I do when it is finished is hand the SOP to a complete randomer, with no previous experience, and see if they can operate the equipment. I don't stand the randomer in front of the equipment and expect them to write the SOP.  :o
Why don't these people get their efforts proof read by someone with experience before they unleash them on the unwary. Iminei et al are having the same problems with their murder mystery quilt instructions. Imagine if a dressmaking numpty (me!) tried to follow the pattern. I'd be going in my vest!
Title: Re: Medieval Dress and mens outfit
Post by: datcat23 on May 05, 2019, 12:38:40 PM
Its infuriating ...... the instructions (such as they are) tell you that a gore goes between two side pieces.  What it doesn't tell you, is that you have to sew the shoulder seams, attach the short ends of the side pieces to the underarm seam of the sleeve, and stitch the whole thing to the side of the front and back in one long seam, BEFORE sewing the gore into what is basically the side seam, continuing on to the underarm.  If you don't, you basically have to firnarcle (my own word) two Y-seams ..... and boy aren't they fun!  And it needs gussets under the arms but doesn't have them in the instructions or measurements. 

My husband does not understand why this is stressing me.  He may .... or may not .... live to wear his costume.   :devil:
Title: Re: Medieval Dress and mens outfit
Post by: DementedFairy on May 05, 2019, 12:58:04 PM
Yep.  She doesn't sew herself, so if you ask questions you get baffling [and eventually angry] answers back.  She clearly doesn't pattern test, so many of her patterns are a disaster, with missing or incorrect instructions.  Often she has simply reproduced period patterns, drafted up to 'modern' sizes but with no knowledge of pattern grading applied.  Pattern pieces are mislabelled,  [eg a gigot sleeve with the underarm seam labelled as the sleeve head, and a cuff measurement that wouldn't fit round a pencil etc etc]
Be loud and vocal about your issues.  Eventually I managed a refund for ONE Of the crappy patterns I'd bought.
Post all of this on Pattern review to maybe save someone else all this pain- there is no way this loony will withdraw or correct any of her crap products
Title: Re: Medieval Dress and mens outfit
Post by: datcat23 on May 05, 2019, 23:04:34 PM
I haven't event looked at Reconstructing History thankfully @DementedFairy .  From what you say, it sounds like a nightmare of a pattern range.

This dress and pattern page is called DragonLore ..... and basically its an data entry page, that gives you the measurements of pieces for the dress.  But, the layout of the information is abysmal, and there are no cohesive sewing instructions at all. 

For the apron dress, I emailed and asked that if there was a front, and two side pieces, where is the back?  Her response .... "at the back".  Turns out, you have to sew the sides to the front, and then join the two sides at the centre back.  And because of this cutting method, you end up with a vertical seam through the centre of one of the sides/gores, which will almost certainly look very unbalanced.  I don't mind the fact that these features exist, but they do need to be properly described. 
Title: Re: Medieval Dress and mens outfit
Post by: HenriettaMaria on May 09, 2019, 21:37:01 PM
Australia is a fair distance away from Coventry. 

D'oh!  Aye, it is! :|
Title: Re: Medieval Dress and mens outfit
Post by: datcat23 on May 21, 2019, 07:47:54 AM
So my fabric has started to arrive.  Ironically the MIL's fabric for her underdress was the first to arrive.  It's 100% linen and I have washed and tumble dried it twice so far.  I am wondering if I should wash/dry it again.  WDYT?
Title: Re: Medieval Dress and mens outfit
Post by: HenriettaMaria on July 09, 2019, 16:14:22 PM
Should be well shrunk now!
Title: Re: Medieval Dress and mens outfit
Post by: Kwaaked on July 09, 2019, 22:17:19 PM
I have a square template and cut one out of linen and then wash and dry it on the highest setting then measure it.  Note the new measurement, then wash it again and remeasure.  If it has shrinkage then, I rewash it.  If not, 2 was fine.

If it wasn't measured, it depends.  If it's handkerchief linen, or very light weight, I'd do a third to be safe.  I find that linen weight usually does have a small amount of shrinkage on the third, but usually will stop or be minimal after that.  I also don't wash the garments the same as I do the sample, which helps as well.  Medium weight and heavy seems to not shrink after 2 as much, although it still can.

Dyes sometimes seem to affect it, too, at least what I buy in the States.  Natural and bleached shrinks less then colored and brightly colored shrinks slightly more then all of them.

However, I plan for the top loss of 15% when sewing with linen and use slightly smaller seam allowances then a commercial pattern calls for or if drafting my own, add about 1/8" or 3mm to the pattern.