The Sewing Place
Machine Talk => Vintage Machines => Topic started by: rowe1311 on November 18, 2017, 20:25:37 PM
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I have been using my singer 15k recently, and having problems with it stitching. I am using it with the hand crank and sometimes it stitches and other times it gets stuck and I am not sure why. When I turn the crank or hand wheel nothing happens and it is often when trying to pierce through the fabric it gets stuck. I have changed the needle, oiled the machine, checked the mechanism without thread in and it works fine and changed the tension, and the balance wheel is screwed in very tight.
I suspect it has something to do with the tension disks, but not sure what. When I loosen the tension it goes through a little smoother, but not always, but the tension is poor and upper thread is showing through on under side a lot. I am missing a take up spring (which I keep meaning to buy but haven't got round to) so I am not if this is the problem or whether there is something else. I suspect it is something quite simple I just don't know what.
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Take up spring? The one for the presser bar or the one on the tensioner? They are both a must to get the machine to behave. The fine coil spring on the tensioner is a must, even if it's bend or just a bit out of place it will mess up tension. All parts of the tensioner needs to be there and in reasonably clean condition to work.
If the machine gets stuck it is mostly likely still oiling and cleaning. Especially if it's not quite run in yet after long term storage. Detect all oil points, investigate thorughly, make sure oil seep in to the inners of all moving parts where metal touches against metal. I'm sure you are aware of them; but just in case; there are oil points on top of the machine, holes in the black cast iron parts, there are a few joints behind the round plate in the back. There's several under the base and the actual points are at the end of rods, and tiny holes to reach inners of joints and hinges, a cam like part the feed dogs roll on. Behind the face plate all joints need oil, and make sure the rods for presser bar and needle bar are oiled where they enter the cast irion part and comes out in the needle and presser foot end. The hand crank have oil points too, but I have hardly used a hand crank and perhaps other can advice on it.
To get it right with these old machine you often have to take all plates and covers off, clean and oil tenatively a few times. Lint, grime and old oil gradually loosens and dissolve. Scrape grime and dust out of feed dogs, every corner and groove should be clean, and the same for the bobbin case and hook parts. Even when you think you have done it more than thoroughly, it's easy to have missed a spot. It takes time to flush all grime and stickly oil out of joints and hinges in a model 15. It's usually all about tentative oiling and cleaning, daily test sewing and oiling for the first week or so.
Other things to check; needle in the correct way. Does your model have a stitch length lever with revers stich; or more of a screw with nut at the end and no reverse?
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It is the take up spring in the tension bit. It has had a few oilings in all the places and anything that looks like it moves. In the bobbin area I have only oiled it in the two points in manual and it might need another clean. There seemed to be very little lint but I do remember that area, and the feed dogs, were pretty grubby when I started using it. When there is no thread on the needle it goes beautifully and it sometimes goes beautifully when stitching, it is just when it starts stitching it seems to have problems. I will have another play and see if the oil has seeped in a bit more. Thank you
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Order the tension spring, it's not expensive and the machine will misbehave with out it. I think there's two types, one for the older 15 with out the numbered dial and one for the newer with the numbered dial. It has to be the correct one, and if you are lucky you might be able to get it in a local repair shop too.
I have test sewed a couple of hand cranks only, sharp need and all that are important, but if I remember correctly it stiched through layers of thick cotton canvas with out being hard work on the hand. I'm still leaning towards further cleaning to fix the problem. When we test sew and have second and third round of cleaning and oiling we get to the finer points. With a bit of investigation you will discover where the problem lies.
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I will ring Helen Howes tomorrow and order the right part, and chat to her as well about the problem. When I was doing a test piece it worked great, but when I try and sew straps onto a bag it struggles. They are not particularly thick, maybe 5 layers of fairly thin material, which I think it shouldn't really struggle with.
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I see, it needs to be looked into. According to the Sewalot site this model was demostrated by stitching through tin cans and I doubt a 5 layers of material should be too much. What can make it struggle is bumpy seams, endges and there's nothing directly wrong, but it needs one of those even out tools "hump jumpers", they sell them under various names. I'm sure it can be sorted out.
What exactly happens? Hard to turn the hand crank? Does the needle stop in the material? Is it threaded correctly? Only trouble when the machine is threaded?
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I chatted to Helen Howes today and ordered the tension Spring. It is also missing the pin at the back which releases the tension when presser foot is up. She suggests that the clutch is slipping and cleaning the clutch and balance wheel and the bits with it might help. I had a quick look at it, but will need to clean it another day and will wait for my spring to arrive.
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Could very well be, when you can wind a bobbin and the needle doesn't move it's a good sign. Another good sign is when you spin the hand wheel and it keeps on spinning and moving the needle up and down for a quite a few seconds. I had to take off the hand wheel on my 201 and oil quite generously for the clutch release to work properly when winding. The second time I did it, I smeared a good layer of oil on all parts where metal moves against metal, and it has worked since. It could be any part on the machine, there are a few easily missed; one of the parts behind the hand wheel, the needle bar itself. The parts under the base can need several application to get the oil where it needs to be. Somtimes the oil points on top of the body can be clogged up, poke a toothpick or pin down there to get any lint and grime out.
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I am trying to clean the the machine and fit the new tension take up spring, but I need help.
I have taken the tension disks off and the rod has come out but I can't seem to find how to put the spring on. I have been following these instructions, http://www.fixthatvintagesewingmachine.com/Thread-tension-spring/Check-spring-replace.html, but I am stuck on photo 6, the coil bit seems to be smaller than the rod bit.
I will take a photo to show you as soon as I find my phone.
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Not great light but this is where I am at at the moment.
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I don't think you should follow the advice about lithium grease. It gets sticky over time and I don't think Singer ever recommended anything but a thorough clean for the tension assembly. Someone with an old type 15K would be better help than me, but for the tension spring it is all about wiggeling it in place, getting it in the right position when tightening the grub screw for the split bolt. This page (https://quiltersstashbox.com/blogs/vsm-collecting/reconditioning-a-singer-15-30-part-3-reassembly) has a more detailed tutorial for the 15-30 model. (starts about 1/3 down the page).
Edit; I managed to enlarge the photos, and I would suggest more polishing and cleaning of the parts. I think there is a separate part stuck on the back end of the split bolt?
Additionally I found a very nice page on cleaning up an old type 15 from the same blogger. Almost halfway down this page (https://quiltersstashbox.com/blogs/vsm-collecting/reconditioning-a-singer-15-30-part-1-disassembly) is more on the tension assembly.
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Thank you, that looks a much better tutorial. What is the split bolt?
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Split bolt / split screw / tension bolt/ metal stud; the metal part the assembly of springs, disks and nut goes onto. I don't know if there is a single specific word for it. On model 15 it looks like the take up spring goes behind the split bolt. Part number three from the left. It's worth shining these parts up, and steel usually shines up like new with the right polish.
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1109/5544/files/tensioner.jpg?2086903726654827051)
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Thank you, I have managed to unscrew that and it makes a bit more sense now. That diagram looks very helpful, the split bolt thing is slightly different. I think the tension unit seems to have slight differences between different machines. The one part that I now know I am missing is the tension release plate. I thought it was the pin and got that from Helen Howes. I will now have to ordert another part.
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Have you looked up the serial number on ismacs? I guess you might have a 15K30, but identifying the subnumber of a 15 requires a bit of investigation. It was in production for a very long time, introduced in 1879 as "Improved Family" and with a few alterations it was given the name "model 15" in 1895. Over the decades it went through minor changes and I don't think there is a complete overview of them on the web, but reasonably good descriptions of the various chages can be searched up.
Around 1930 (or a couple of years before) a version with stitch length lever and reverse was introduced. Around this point they were given a tension dial with numbers 0 to 9. I think Singer generally stopped making them in the very early 1960s, but they have been productions of them relatively recently in China, Taiwan and India.
That's why it's a bit hard to rule out any differences or a single type of tensioner. As mentioned earlier I know there are at least two types, the one you have and the later version with a numbered dial. Another thing is threading, it can differ slighly too.
Either way, model 15 is a favorite model for many, particularly among quilters and those wo do free motion emboridery. It's one of the most bullit proof models too, handles everything you can fit under the presser foot and some insist it does a better stitch than a 201. My favorite machine is a 201K, so it's a bit hard for me to insist one is better than the other.
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It is a 15-30 and produced in 1920 so unfortunately doesn't have the number dial, and more annoyingly the reverse stitch (I realise how dependent I am on it). I am sure a 15-91 would b more practical for me as it has the drop feed too.
Anyway, I am still waiting for my husband to help attach the treadle belt back on, and once I get the tension sorted I will try it with FME.
I also have an electric 201 which has just recently played up. I am not sure if it is the bobbin, thread or machine, but after I have this 15 working better that will be my next project whenever that will be!
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The feed dog cover plate works well on model 15, it's not any more cumbersome to fit on than the setting screw under the base. There are various kinds, some slide and click on to the throat plate from the left, some are attched with a screw. You might find one among the accessories. I have an old 99 with out revers too, and usually it's fine. Larger bulks of fabric are more work to turn the other way, that's when I sometimes miss the revers stitch. I tend to use the 201 for that kind of work anyhow. A 15K91 is few and far between here, but the version with stitch length lever and belt driven motor turns up now and then. I am still on the look for a 201K2 (gear driven motor) :- )
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I am still trying to get the tension right but no matter how much I seem to tighten the tension, it still shows through on the under side. When I had it serviced the bobbin tension was changed to the correct tension and I have just used other bobbin cases to see if it might be the bobbin tension, but they all give the same tension with top thread showing through on under side. I don't know if I am being too pedantic but it would be nice to get the correct tension as I have no idea where it should be and changing it seems to make no difference to the stitch quality.
The other picture shows my spare bobbin cases. The one on the right fits the 15, but any idea which machine the other one fits? I think they both came from the same accessories with the 15k.
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You are test sewing on two layers of fabric? With one layer of fabric it's nearly impossible to get the interlocking just so. You should get perfect tension on two layers or something is out of adjustment. Make sure the needle and thread are a good match; sharp needle might be the best. For general test stitcing and tension adjustment use sew-all weight polyester (Gütermann is the standard) and not too small needle. If you aim for top stitch thread use a large size needle ( 110/18).
You could use the drop test og weight test for the bobin case. If you have a very accurate scale you can make a bag of rice weighing 28 grams / 1 oz. Make sure the bobbin and thread are properly in the case and spring; adjust the tension screw to a point where the rice bag releases thread with just a touch or light tug on the bobbin case.
The dirty bobbin case might work in your machine, but I guess your model takes a case with a finger. When ordering a spare bobbin case make sure it has the finger in correct place (either one o'clock or eleven o'clock). I'm not sure which model the other case belongs too.
Tension problems and skipping stitches can happen if you have the needle in the wrong way. Singer 15 submodels differ this way (flat side either left or right); if you have the original manual with the machine double check.
If you have dirty bobbin case and presser feet, fill a jar with hot water, ad some dish washing powder, let the parts soak in there for a few minutes, rinse and wipe them thoroughly with a dry soft cloth before they have a chance to rust. All shiny steel and chromed parts usually clean up very well. Be more careful when cleaning the black lacquer.
Do you have gradual tension when pulling the thread through the needle? When the nut is tightened does the thread grip tightly, and when loosened less so? I think you need all parts of the top tension assembly for it to work, are you missing part number three from the right in the picture?
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I have a 15k at home Rowe. If I can, I'll get some pics of the bobbin. I have not had any problems with mine.
I'll have a read of this thread to see if there is anything else I may be able to help with.
Jessie
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I've just remembered, Lizzie Lenard uses a 15k to do FMQ, and she also has a series of Youtube videos showing restoration of a few machines.
Here's the link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2tiiZ51J7g
Hope it helps.
Jessie
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I've just found a video with quite a clear shot of the bobbin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDOxKJjLIQ4
It's about 6 minutes in.
Jessie
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I found this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSPpZuVC8Vw) for the old type tensioner if you haven't already. Unfortunately he doesn't have all the parts out, the split bolt and takeup spring is already in. It shows the outer disk, next to the tension disks. You have to get the tensioner right to get a balanced stitch. If you have the very last thread guide (above the needle) on the left side you can assume it threads from left to right (needle in flat side to the right); and the other way around if this thread guide is on the right.
Cleaning matters more than you might think. I once had a 201 with a very dirty needle bar. I had already spent a lot of time cleaning and oiling this machine, had had been test sewing for a bit. When the needle moved up and down it scraped to one side of the turning part the race and hook rests on. I thought it was out of adjustment and tried to find a service manual for it. Two weeks later I take the needle clamp off, and discover the groove for the needle is packed with grime and dust; after I scraped it out with a tooth pick the needle went right into place as it should, and suddenly there were luxurious clearing for the neadle. Tensioners will misbehave if they are sticky too.
Some models are very sensitive to which way the bobbin is placed in the bobbin case, a 15 is usually not, but there is a righ tand a wrong way from which it is wound. On models like 99 and 66 you have to get it right or the machine will misbehave.
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Thanks for the videos, I haven't had a chance to look through them yet, but will try to tonight. I have used the machine a bit today, and when I have white and white the tension seems to be much better. Before, they were two different brands of thread. One coats moon and another a cheap lidl thread I think. I am wondering if that might have been the problem. I still don't see a huge difference when I change the tension dial though.
I have e-mailed Helen Howes for a new tension release plate and sent her some pictures of what the machine looks like, so hopefully she might have some more advice too.
Arrow - As for the class 66 bobbins. Perhaps that is why some bobbins misbehave because I am putting them in the wrong way. That is my next machine to investigate.
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I have used bargain priced thread too, lately it has been a type of two pack polyester from a local store that sells just about any nicknack for house and hobbies. It usually behave very well, the only downside to the slighly more fuzzy polyester thread is more dust and lint in the bobbin-feed dog area. The worst of case is when it gathers behind the faceplate, I guess it enters with the take up lever? Gütermann is smoother and with out the minimal fuzz some threads have, hardly any dust at all, even after hours of sewing.
My point is, I don't think the stitch problem is caused by the thread, but when you test sew for adjusting tension I would go for the same thread in the bobbin as on top. The aim is for a good general bobbin adjustment and later on you can get by with simply adjusting the nut on the top tensioner. It usually works well with various threads in the medium weight range, but many keep an extra bobbin case adjusten for a particular top stitch weight thread if they use often switch between different threads. Generally you should be able to easily adjust for different thread in the bobbin than on top with out much problem.
I don't think the behive spring will behave as it should with out the smaller disk text to the tension disks. That's probably why you can't get it to stitch properly. That's what gives it the even tension. The take up spring helps too, but evens out the pulling on the tread more than any thing else. A 15 should behave very well in this regard.