The Sewing Place
Machine Talk => Sewing Machines => Topic started by: KayK on December 20, 2019, 13:43:59 PM
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OOOO....it's all getting stroppy out there!
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1730433007257745/2232816817019359/?sale_post_id=2232816817019359&comment_id=2232821217018919&reply_comment_id=2233567240277650¬if_id=1576776026926540¬if_t=group_comment_reply
A chap is describing a machine as "Semi-industrial" (which we know there is no such thing) and there are several replies! It does annoy me when people do this for sales - I'm sure a lot of people out there buy one mistakenly thinking they can be used for continuous heavy work. I know two bods who have purchased this 'type' - usually old metal bodied machines and expect them to cope with heavy repairs to horse rugs, and making dog beds and to sew through many layers of webbing, and both have been disappointed as they expected to make a business out of their services. The old machines might cope with it on a few occasions, but not for long!
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Lacking expertise, I am going to ask you for a bit more detail. I imagine that a machine is either industrial grade or it isn’t. Am I making the correct assumption?
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A proper industrial machine will have a separate, really heavy motor. This (and all the other "semi-industrial" machines) is just a heavy duty domestic. It will cope with the occasional horse blanket, upholstered chair cover, heavy denim jeans or whatever but won't last long if it's used all day every day which is what is expected of an industrial machine.
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Lacking expertise, I am going to ask you for a bit more detail. I imagine that a machine is either industrial grade or it isn’t. Am I making the correct assumption?
You are indeed! A lot of 'sellers' describe the old metal bodied machines as 'semi-industrial' I think in the hope that the older machines will appeal to a potential (novice) buyer.
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It's a bit of a marketing ploy. Not on this guy selling, he's repeating what he is seeing.
The class is technically semi professional (the semi industrial comes more from sellers of the machines rather then the brand itself) and has been around since at least the 1930s in advertisements (which could be earlier, but I noticed it in the ads for Singer 201s consistently starting in 1938). It also has appeared as dressmaker/tailor machines in ads promoting sewing from home as a business in middle 20th century as well.
Modernly, these machines are kind of all over the place and nothing is the same from brand or model. It can include any or all of these: the ability to use industrial folders/feet (aka high shank), a larger harp area, all metal/mostly metal, can sew faster then a domestic by usually twice the speed (1500-2000 SPM) which is the most consistent feature of this category, straight stitch only and may have special feet that industrial machines don't offer but are model specific making the machine more usable in domestic applications then just an industrial, be gear driven like industrial machines...the list actually goes on fairly long on what they can do.
But even industrial machines aren't made for heavy items consistently. My industrial has to have a needle plate, feed dog, foot, stitch regulator, hook and needle bar changed out to sew really heavy fabrics and is geared for light to medium-heavy weight fabrics. Most denim can be sewn on the machine for alterations (up to 13 oz, depending on brand and content with the majority sold today being under 12 oz...denim is all really light now), but at about 15 oz denim and heavier fabrics (and I sew 18-22 oz denim and vinyl and canvas) I use a different industrial that has a larger presser foot clearance, harp and was originally meant to sew saddles since even industrials aren't made equal.
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@KayK Thank you for highlighting this seller and this sale for A Bernina 830 Record. Never been on the Facebook Group before so it was very interesting to read his 'description' and his justification for same.
He owns a business which started in the 80's doesn't say how long he's owned it! Doesn't matter though. He should and will be made aware that a part of his wonderful description was copied from another listing for a Bernina 830 record for sale on Ebay! Ebay doesn't take kindly to that and can and hopefully will remove his listing. Not too sure how a seller with one Neg Feedback out of 8 is showing 100%?
Ah well, buying used sewing machines can be a minefield and it's definitely Caveat emptor.
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Reply by sasewingmachines (03-Jul-19 15:56):
Rude, arrogant, impatient & ignorant, 3rd party issue - damaged in transit
So, this is the reply he sent for his negative feedback!
There is another site which sells horrendously expensive second hand machines of the same description......
I have no doubt they are well serviced, but........
https://www.sewing4everyone.com/product-category/type/semi-industrial-sewing-machines/?fbclid=IwAR1S8f7Vh9qRKmeQIOjdNRTT-CS2zZYvh3L57YR2IQ0VgE3JIwYsXYfGX50
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@KayK If the seller follows his own posting he cannot say he is unaware of his 'transgressions'.
Be interesting to see if he responds in a courteous manner.
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Looking at his responses on Facebook, I doubt it.
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Looking at his responses on Facebook, I doubt it.
You were correct in doubting his ability to respond courteously If you read his response I'm sure you'll understand what I mean.
In case anyone is in doubt it is my my words and description he has 'cherry picked' and no I am not happy about it I probably would never have become aware but for @KayK starting this thread. Thank you @KayK
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I've had a further look at his post and he seriously isn't doing himself any favours for his 'bricks and mortar' shop! I certainly wouldn't buy anything from him! To reduce any potential damage I would have simply removed the ad, then reworded it!
I had an issue with someone who was selling a saddle, using my photos and words.....eBay did leap upon it when I pointed it out, and I would have thought a Facebook admin would have stepped in by now.
I think there is a case of "emperors new clothes" going on these days - rather a lot of the old machines seem to be advertised for extortionate amounts of money......there is no way of telling how much wear and tear they have had. I have only ever paid peanuts for my old machines, and have been very lucky so far. Going by his prices, my old Bernina 1260, which is brilliant, must be worth around £3000! (I paid £85 for it!).
Oh well, I'll keep on watching.
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@KayK I have never tried to sell anything on that group, only became aware of it's existence through you starting this topic.
I thought a moderator of the group may have stepped in. He's probably hoping someone will stop him making himself even more objectionable. Oh No he won't! (well it is pantomime season after all) I don't think he realises for one minute just how he comes across on there, he's far too arrogant.
I have looked further re his 'business' and I use the term loosely, and also on Facebook. Not a practise I normally pursue but quite enlightening.
I have no issues with sellers anywhere stating their price for an item, people can choose to purchase or look elsewhere. Some sellers are are lacking in knowledge and can be guided/misled by other peoples opinions of value and price accordingly. However this person claims to have better, superior knowledge and marketing skills.
My apologies to other members on here if I have offended anyone or transgressed in my postings.
Thank you for your comments and support.
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Quite interesting reading all this. Funnily enough on a recent clear out I came across a brochure, that I think I picked up when I bought my Janome 7000, first computer machine (1991). It was for the New Home 333 (I think, 300 something) very pretty looking certainly prettier than the Brother I got rid of from 1967. I was wondering whether you could still get it but couldn't see anything that looked like it. Anyway I got all nostalgic and thought if I saw one I would buy it. Fortunately looking I got a bit of a reality check. I was so pleased when the old one went (Freecycle) and I remembered it only did a straight stitch and zigzag and was flipping heavy and temperamental although that might have been user error.
Some people seem to think that because the Bernina fetches a high price they can do the same with any old machine with the term semi industrial thrown about. On the Preloved Machines on Facebook you pointed to, I noticed my current Pfaff Expression on sale for £500. I think I only paid £580 for it and I've had it 10 years. I've also seen my old Janome 7000 on Ebay for around £300. I'm beginning to think that the £25 I got for it on Ebay around 2009 was far too small a price! Or was I just being realistic, I only had one offer.
I suppose they are a bit like cars, you can con anybody if you have the gift of the gab.
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There are a certain amount of sewing machines that I have sold or Part Ex-ed that I wouldn't want to use again, including some 1970's Singers, which I have seen classed as 'semi-industrial'! The one I did regret letting go was a Janome Memory Craft - I needed to raise some funds for a hefty vet bill :(
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@Gernella If it's the Pfaff Expression 2 Quilting Machine, it's the same rude arrogant seller as mentioned previously.
Some buyers are seduced by names/brands and flowery prose! They either don't know enough about sewing machines per se and I sometimes wonder whether they've actually looked and read listings properly.
Just because a machine is a Bernina doesn't necessarily mean it's a good specimen. The high (inflated) prices sometimes delude the naive buyers.
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Just because a machine is a Bernina doesn't necessarily mean it's a good specimen. The high (inflated) prices sometimes delude the naive buyers.
Very true. Back in the 70's a lot of sewing machines in schools and colleges were Bernina as they were thought to be the most reliable and repairable - however I wouldn't want to buy one as I reckon they had serious mischief done to them by some pupils!
I am constantly amazed by the prices asked for some Singer Featherweights - I have seen £600 being asked. That is of course not to say that it sold for that much.
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@KayK There are a few Singer 222K Featherweights for sale on Market place atm. if you have £1000 to spare!
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I just turned a featherweight into a hand crank and removed the motor and will let my 8 year old learn to sew on it. You should have seen the comments I got for that, and it ranged from destroying the machine to me being mental for allowing a child to use that expensive machine (aside from the fact it looks like a toy).
No one paid attention to the fact that the motor had been on fire before.
The wiring was shot throughout the machine due to that fire.
Fixing it was more then the machine was worth.
I spent a week cleaning, oiling and refurbishing the machine to make it work.
Doing this made it usable and not a boat anchor.
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Did they offer to buy and fix it? I thought not. An excellent introduction for your daughter to a lifetime pleasure. Much better than one of those horrid toys.
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But... I thought an industrial SM is defined as a machine that usually is astonishingly fast, has just one function (eg straight stitch or buttonholing), an external clutch motor and needs plenty of space because of the size of the table, etc., and a technician in attendance to make any adjustments? Also, try moving one! In truth, a purely domestic application would be silly, I think.
Seriously though, it is marketing speak as pp have said to the uninitiated and I guess the moral of the story has to be 'Buyer beware'. Personally, if a poor metal domestic machine had spent its days in a surfer dude's bedsit mending sails or repairing motor bike seats, I wouldn't want it. ;)
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Did they offer to buy and fix it? I thought not. An excellent introduction for your daughter to a lifetime pleasure. Much better than one of those horrid toys.
Nah, of course not. Of all of them, this is the one my daughter likes. The industrial scares her, the 201 is too big, my 128 hand crank goes too fast for my liking for her and the treadles are a bit more complicated then she wants to mess with.
She is already scared of sewing with "real" machines...even with a finger guard. Part of her perfectionism is in there too, I suspect. So, I got the part that one rotation is one stitch...so it is nice and slow, even if it isn't the most economical in terms of use. Nice thing is: it's my machine. Is it stupid to give a kid a machine every one else seems to want? Maybe. I know I've got more money in it then it is worth, but how do you put a price tag on a machine that your kid feels is just right for them? (You can't.)
As to real industrials, my sales/repair guy came by to check on me and see if I needed anything because he was in the area and I had a ticket for a screw if he happened to be on the route so I didn't have to have the $50 min order for a 60 cent screw. I do have all my machines out and he is always amazed at what I have. He is an industrial machine repair, and I was giving him a hard time about my "semi-industrials", of which I have a few: a Singer 201, a Bernina something or other and every other domestic put into use in the shop.
His reply: there is no such thing, and we carry no parts for any domestic machines...AT ALL.
Professional repair guys say they don't exist. And I can't get a part for them from industrial sewing machine part shops...so...
<mumbles>it's a domestic!
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Interesting topic.
I owned a 930 Bernina during a year a few years ago. I had bought it 50 € in Switzerland, so it was worth. I loved it. But I apply to the opinion that it was not a semi industrial machine, just a very heavy and solid domestic one.
Unfortunately, the motor finally crashed (this is their fragility, the metal pieces hold, but after a 40 yers service, well, the motor has issues).
Thus I searched a new one.
I finally chose 2 new ones : one I call semi industrial or professional for straight stitch, and one domestic for zz and stretch stitches.
Talking about the semi industrial one, this is a Juki TL series. I am not afraid to call it semi industrial due mainly to its characteristics whose some are implemented from industrial series. This is not an industrial one, of course, its speed is 1500 / min only, but for the rest, it is quite comparable.
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I have Juki TLP - I recognise that it does 'borrow' some industrial parts (the threader and the feet, and the relatively high speed). I absolutely love it. I use it for fast accurate straight stitching - I love the thread cutter! I also use it for free motion stitching - the feet are so heavy and non-fragile, as is the pedal, which weighs a ton and doesn't slide around the floor. I hope you enjoy your machine, I purchased mine second hand for about £300 three years ago and nothing would make me change it!
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@KayK, yes, I am just in love with my TL. I've owned 'her' since 4 years and I've never had the least issue with her. Except last summer when I used a too thick thread and she said 'stoooop !'. Well, I dismantled and cleaned her up completely, and she worked like a new one. She is the best machine I have ever had, she sews very thin silk and very heavy jeans as well. I know she is very appreciated by quilters (which I am not), but she does the job wonderfully for sewing clothings too.
Unfortunately, I never found a second-hand one, I had to pay the high price to get her, but I don't regret a second ! <3
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I'm using (occasionally) a Husqvarna Mega Quilter, similar to the Janome 1600P. I think the most work it has ever had was when I tried my hand at making a quilted bag and some chair arm covers for DH. It does work wonderfully well and happily switches from heavy fabrics to light with no need to change the tension. Yes she only does one stitch but it is a nice stitch. In a former life she was used to make fabric handbags although when I got her and took her apart, she had obviously never been cleaned since the day she was bought. Now, she does not get used much but she always works. Of course me being me, I have also lusted after the Juki at one time or another but just gave myself a :fish:
Unfortunately I don't think she is built to work 24/7 for 5 years or more. When they make recommendations Juki usually comes out on top so their Juki TL series is probably the best and nearest you will get to a professional machine, although I would be out of my depth with 5000 spm on the 'big' ones.
Going back to the website, it was funny that the section About Us, was actually nothing About Us, just more blurb.
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@Gernella on the SPM, my industrial is considered ultra high speed at 5500. I think my servo is set somewhere around 2K for the most part. If memory serves, my Rimoldi overlocker is 2700 on a clutch motor.
Like any other part of sewing, you have to learn to use machines at that speed. I can sew faster on the machines then I do,