The Sewing Place
The Emporia => In the wardrobe => Patterns Discussion => Topic started by: NatalieSews on May 22, 2019, 21:28:18 PM
-
I have dropped on to an amazing listing on gumtree and managed to bag myself a BOX of early nineties patterns and there are some from a BBC sewing show.!!!
For free!!
They were moving house (down sizing) and husband didn't want to take it to new home.
Sooo... I want to copy them as they are all uncut too! So how do I go about copying them and sharing them as they are all vintage 1990-1980 patterns?
:vintage: :vintage: :vintage: :vintage:
-
I think they will be under copyright so you can’t copy and share... good find though.
-
They are definitely still in copyright, and will be until 70 years after the death of the designer.
https://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p01_uk_copyright_law (https://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p01_uk_copyright_law)
-
Ooh definitely a no no.
But have to laugh at the 'vintage' description. :). I have loads from the 70's that I made and wore. But you are so much younger than me. Makes me feel old.
-
But have to laugh at the 'vintage' description. :). I have loads from the 70's that I made and wore.
The technical description of "Vintage" is that it is more than 20 years old, or belonging to the previous generation!
-
You can use your window as a light table to trace patterns- blu tack on the pattern sheet and lay see through paper on top. The lines will show through.
-
@jintie that is genius. I only have a dark work surface and have to cover it with white stuff before I can see anything.
French doors here I come! :loveit:
-
I used to have large windows and copied using that method but now, with small windows, I copy my pattern table top by using large format paper, carbon paper and tracing wheel.
I wrote about the paper already, somewhere. It's a large roll 90gsm and 600mm x 50 metres and cost me €19 if I remember correctly. I got it from a local printers. Butcher paper might do the job too, if easier to source.
If the french windows don't work out this way might suit you, you could do a lot of tracing but only need to cut out when you want to use something.
I've been storing the cut patterns by punching with a single punch and threading a treasury tag through, clipping that to a hanger. A sortof cheap, using what I had, version of how I see patterns being stored. So far it's working ok.
Great find, especially uncut... enjoy :)
-
I've been storing the cut patterns by punching with a single punch and threading a treasury tag through, clipping that to a hanger. A sortof cheap, using what I had, version of how I see patterns being stored. So far it's working ok.
That sounds like a good idea.
Fingers crossed I didn't chuck that box of treasury tags the last time I had a 'tidy up'.
-
Ooh definitely a no no.
But have to laugh at the 'vintage' description. :). I have loads from the 70's that I made and wore. But you are so much younger than me. Makes me feel old.
I agree. I think of 20 years as simply Retro and Vintage to me is something around 40 years or older.
The 80’s surely can’t be vintage....No,No,No! :S
-
That sounds like a good idea.
Fingers crossed I didn't chuck that box of treasury tags the last time I had a 'tidy up'.
LOL As soon as you get rid of something you'll think of a handy use for it... too true. I just keep stuff, the carbon paper is from when I was learning typing... around the 80s oh dear!
My plan with this pattern storage plan was to gather a handful of wire hangers next time local shop had them to take away free. Then I'd use the hook part of them, with the tags, to hang the patterns. So the clips are an interim measure that could last forever, the shop hasn't offered hangers since I thought of this.
-
I copy with art transfer sheets onto plain news print. NP is just as sturdy as that tissue. https://www.dickblick.com/products/richeson-transfer-paper/
Storing, I have the pattern punch and the pattern hooks. I got the punch from a supplier of mine (it's a pattern punch and notcher all in one) as a gift since they were starting to carry them for a review and the hooks on ebay, although they have a webshop.
-
Oh copyright! DARN it!
As well apologies if my use of the word vintage is making some feel old, that wasn't my intention and I did not know that The technical description of "Vintage" is that it is more than 20 years old, or belonging to the previous generation!
That means I'm vintage then, being 28.
So can I, copy them for me and then send then on to maybe you guys once I have?
Is that the same as copyright? Am I still being naughty? Because money is not changing hands so surely I'm not at breech.
-
That would be breaching copyright. You have the right to copy things for your own use, but you cannot distribute the copies to others. You could use them yourself sell them on but it would need to be the complete product.
I also saw on the .Gov website re copyright, that if you trace a pattern for your own use, then sell/give away the pattern at a later date, you must destroy your traced copy.
The other thing you can’t do is make a 2D copy from a 3D copy. ie if you have a RTW garment you like, you can’t make a pattern from it, even for your own use.
-
Once you get rid, you think of a use. So true! I just stopped myself clearing out my hoard of plastic veg nets (come with lemons etc) when I thought I could use them in bunting as a layer under fabric flags.
-
I remember back in the vintage days of the 1960s I was a bridesmaid for my uncle and his new wife. Aunty Peggy didn't sew but she had acquired a length of lovely dark red velvet fabric which she commissioned a local dresmaker to to turn into a long dress for me (subsequently shortened to make a nice party dress). The dressmaker made her buy the chosen pattern and then made her accept it along with the dress. That way there was no way that she (dressmaker) could be accused of breaching copyright for using the pattern multiple times for different clients.
-
Yeah that is correct. You can only retain copies for your personal use while you own the item.
How would anyone know if you retained copies for your own personal use after you had sold or given away the originals?
I can'[t see how that would be policed tbh? Almost impossible to do that unless you tried selling copies of the pattern or made up the pattern and sold the item online for gain?
Just my views.
-
Talking about copying commercial patterns, now I think about it , I have never copied one. I have bought lots of patterns but never actually copied one. I just use the original tissue or paper it came on.
-
I'm sorry I didn't think about copying patterns rather than cutting the size lines when I started out. I've now got cut patterns I no longer fit. Lesson learned, now I copy them :S
It's for personal use, but I've also got the option of sharing my original, moreso than if I'd cut it. Is sharing against copyright?
-
I'm sorry I didn't think about copying patterns rather than cutting the size lines when I started out. I've now got cut patterns I no longer fit. Lesson learned, now I copy them :S
It's for personal use, but I've also got the option of sharing my original, moreso than if I'd cut it. Is sharing against copyright?
Yes it is, in theory.
You then get the situation where someone wants to use one of your patterns, which is no longer in print and unable to be bought, but you don’t want to get rid of it. You have to tell your friend, sorry you can’t trace it due to copyright. Does it still breech copyright to say, bring your fabric round and I’ll cut it out. You’re still in theory sharing.
My understanding of copyright is to protect the creator from plagerisation and profiting from it, either with financial gain or reputation.
-
It's for personal use, but I've also got the option of sharing my original, moreso than if I'd cut it. Is sharing against copyright?
Yes.
-
I do think this is a difficult concept to grasp, especially as so many patterns are free on the internet now. Also, different countries have different copyright rules.
It must be really confusing, especially for newbies, and being sewers, we just want to share. :S
Jessie
-
You then get the situation where someone wants to use one of your patterns, which is no longer in print and unable to be bought, but you don’t want to get rid of it. You have to tell your friend, sorry you can’t trace it due to copyright. Does it still breech copyright to say, bring your fabric round and I’ll cut it out. You’re still in theory sharing.
My understanding of copyright is to protect the creator from plagerisation and profiting from it, either with financial gain or reputation.
This is where copyright gets into a grey area. Everyone knows that this sort of thing happens - I've come across it lots of times with lace patterns; you lend someone a book and who knows if they copy a few pages? Their wrong if anything ever came of it, which is unlikely.
However openly advertising that you have patterns that you are willing to share could very well get you into trouble, especially on public access internet sites! If you did try to advertise on TSP I'm sure the mods would delete your post, and possibly even cancel your subscription.
-
No one would know. But not being found out doesn't make it OK to break the law.
I wasn't suggesting that people should break the law at all. And I have never copied any of my patterns but realistically
it sounds like people do copy their patterns and some even keep their copies for a long time. All I was stating was that is would be virtually impossible to check who keeps copies of sewing patterns and who doesn't in the privacy of their own home.
-
@Francesca This forum has a post on here where someone was offering to trace a pattern for them and send it to them? I presume then that is ok and not breaking the law, as the post never got deleted? In fact the original request asked to borrow the pattern to trace it themselves?
-
It's very easy to get bogged down, in a case like this, with the letter of the law and no-one is likely to be held accountable for any infringements - especially as "real" crimes are going uninvestigated because of lack of resources. What it is important to remember is that the law was written, in essence, to prevent someone profiting financially and commercially from someone else's work, and nor should they. However, friends sharing a pattern doesn't fit into that scenario - the "borrower" probably would not have gone out and bought the pattern otherwise and if the pattern is out of print they would be unable to do so anyway. No-one in this case is losing out. It's little different to me buying a designer frock and lending it to a friend.
-
We must have missed that! It says in our membership agreement not to post copyright-infringing things so it should have been reported/deleted.
I never even thought about it until we started discussing the pattern copying today. Good job it wasn't copied then isn't it :|
As greybird said. There's bigger fish to fry regarding crime atm. Not an excuse but just a fact of life at present?
lizzy
* sorry was predictive text that changed the spelling in the original post. I have amended it as soon as I saw it, which is just now.
-
It's quite interesting when you think there are magazines out there showing you how to copy RTW garments to make a pattern from your fave clothes! :o
-
If you loan me your pattern magazine, that's totally ok, no copyright issue there.
I wonder what's the story if I make something from the magazine while I have it, and then return the magazine to you. Is my garment a copyright problem?
-
It probably is legally, but if I'm honest I wouldn't give it another thought. Who is going to know?
Just my personal opinion........
-
I'm not too worried about it but I like playing with all the 'what ifs' :P
-
Our library has Burda magazines, including the patterns, available to borrow. Presumably multiple borrowers can trace patterns and make items from only one copy of the magazine.
-
I think the aim of the legislation is to prevent someone using someone else's pattern commercially / making multiples for sale. No one is going to come knocking on your door if you've copied a pattern to make yourself a pair of trousers.
-
Our library has Burda magazines, including the patterns, available to borrow. Presumably multiple borrowers can trace patterns and make items from only one copy of the magazine.
It's a good point.
That's a great resource from your library @PollyWally, nice :)
-
I visited my local library yesterday to collect a couple of books I’d ordered for my DS and happened to browse through the sewing and crafting section. Lots of books on knitting and crochet with a couple of books on patchwork but not one on general sewing. Maybe they were all on loan but as the local newsagent doesn’t stock any sewing magazines but at least 4 different crochet mags (!!), I suspect they just don’t have any.
I can’t imagine them stocking the Burda magazine but maybe I should ask?
Luckily, I’ve collected my own mini sewing library at home. The Works had some fab sewing books at excellent prices just before Christmas so I stocked up.
-
I think the aim of the legislation is to prevent someone using someone else's pattern commercially / making multiples for sale. No one is going to come knocking on your door if you've copied a pattern to make yourself a pair of trousers.
My thoughts too. It’s really all about money.
-
I read a forum post on Pattern Review the other day where a poster quite blatantly admitted she buys patterns, traces a copy for herself and then re-sells them. >:)
-
I read a forum post on Pattern Review the other day where a poster quite blatantly admitted she buys patterns, traces a copy for herself and then re-sells them. >:)
That is the sort of trick the laws are aimed at (and how stupid do you have to be to broadcast that you do it?)
-
I read a forum post on Pattern Review the other day where a poster quite blatantly admitted she buys patterns, traces a copy for herself and then re-sells them. >:)
PR has a reporting function (as do we) - best to report posts like that, so that the forum doesn’t get in trouble. It’s impossible for mods to read every single post, so using that function would alert us.
-
I've just been to the Fasion and Textile museum to see an exhibition on the swinging sixties, and there was a coat by Mary Quant with a little shoulder cape. I had a black wool version of that in 1967, by a different designer! I worked in a boutique in York and went to London with my boss on buying trips. Copying of clothes was rife then, I remember seeing garments from different designers hanging in showrooms which were going to be copied
-
I am copying a pattern...copyright was 1904. It's out of the legal issue...but I am not tracing a pattern exact. I am taking a drawing and drafting it to be similar. None of the embroidery or lacework is part of the pattern. It's not an issue...the company that issued it wants a copy for their records.
Otherwise, unless I draft or drape them myself, I stay away from sharing.
-
If you understand pattern cutting you should be able to look at a garment and draft something very similar for yourself. That surely isn't copying as such, it's taking inspiration from the original.
Copying is tracing, photographing, photocopying, scanning the original paper pattern.
-
@Lizzy777 Yes, that was me. Sorry, got so bogged down in her not finding the OOP pattern that I forgot all about copypright. I did try writing to the company asking for clarification, some time ago, but got no reply from them at all. Still, I'll remember in future.
-
I’ve just bought a pattern from eBay ....a Vogue pattern, it’s what we used to call a discard, it has the folded pattern and the instructions but no envelope, however the envelope has been copied and that coy was included. I didn’t realise all this, just thought I was buying a normal pattern, I checked on her listing and she says all patterns have no envelope.... I thought selling these discards wasn’t allowed.
-
No it's not allowed @Efemera. They are supposed to be destroyed and the envelopes returned to the pattern companies.
-
I’ve just bought a pattern from eBay ....a Vogue pattern, it’s what we used to call a discard, it has the folded pattern and the instructions but no envelope, however the envelope has been copied and that coy was included. I didn’t realise all this, just thought I was buying a normal pattern, I checked on her listing and she says all patterns have no envelope.... I thought selling these discards wasn’t allowed.
What is a discard and why does it have to be destroyed? I saw a whole bunch of patterns such as these being sold in a B&M shop recently.
-
As I understand it, they are not allowed to be sold at full price, with the colour cover. That's what I was told in my local fabric shop, where I frequently buy these 'discards' - usually pay just a pound or two.
Many years ago, I had several boxes of these given to me by a lady who was retiring from the fabric shop she owned in Prescot. I also inherited her sewing machine.
Jessie
-
No they aren’t allowed to be sold. Instructions are issued by the companies when the discard book comes through. And it clearly states that the patterns themselves should be destroyed and the envelopes returned to the pattern companies. However, what the shops actually do with them is another matter. :)
-
Just to add to the discussion, it's interesting to consider this from a real life designer's point of view. One of my favourite knitting designers, Kate Davis, offered one of her first patterns, owls (https://www.ravelry.com/patterns/library/owls-9), as a free download when she first released it. Debenhams then released a jumper for sale that was almost identical. I think the blog posts about it have mainly been deleted, but it was very difficult for her to pursue any legal action due to being unable to demonstrate any financial loss. Copyright law can be tricky to get your head around, but when you start thinking about it in terms of a real person having their design 'stolen', it makes more sense, to me at least.
Also, the Kate Davis' story had a happy ending (https://kddandco.com/2012/07/12/thankyou-knitters/), as Debenhams made a donation of £5,000 to Chest, Heart, and Stroke Scotland, which was a cause very close to her.
That said, it is much more difficult to sympathise when we are talking about older OOP patterns, not to mention that it would be impossible to not draw inspiration from fashion designers and and ready to wear collections (amongst very many other things) - I want to sound clever here and add a quote about there being no truly original ideas/ production in the world but I can't remember it! :D
-
@Missie sorry I didn’t reply to your question. A discard is a discontinued pattern. Every few months a stock check has to be done of the patterns held in the cabinets. Sometimes there is a new catalogue issued and along with that there may be discontinued patterns as well as new ones. The discontinued patterns have to be destroyed. Presumably so they cannot be sold on. And sending them back would be prohibitively expensive as there can be over 100 of them each time.
-
I contacted the eBay seller but they seemed totally unconcerned.